It's Giving Optimism | Kevin Owocki

[00:00] So we'll do content and community. And then I think... [00:02] We could do... Remind me what the content and community conversation is. I was hoping you could remind me. [00:09] Hello, I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. No. [00:20] Just boy stuff. [00:21] Okay. Hi. Hi. Um, Dina, what's boys club? [00:27] Boys Club is a social DAO. [00:30] That is a bunch of people building together in Web3. [00:35] Great, great, great. Do you think it's ever going to not be cute that we like... [00:39] don't know what boys club is. It might, maybe, maybe soon, maybe soon we should figure it out. We have a whole universe of, of, [00:47] products services uh we have this podcast we have a newsletter which you can subscribe to in the show notes which is hilarious oh my gosh weekly update on what's happening in the world of crypto um we have a discord that you can apply to we have events we have all sorts of different things jump on in the water's warm um so that's boys club and what did we talk about who did we have [01:17] He's so wonderful. He's like... [01:19] kind and thoughtful and like truly believes in, [01:24] in like a better world through this technology. Like truly. He's a, he's a deep optimist. And I also, what I loved about our interview with Kevin is like, he's a, he, he's a really good listener. You know, when you talk to people and they're like really like they're good at listening and you're like, man, this is a quality human. Yeah. I had that sense with, I had that sense too. Where like you're saying something and he's like really thinking about, really thinking about it. Yeah. It's really amazing. So we talked about public goods, networked goods. Sure did. All of that.

[01:54] It was great. It was a really great interview. And if you want to feel like... [01:58] Pretty juiced up and good about the world. Yeah, hopeful. Yeah, really hopeful take. Definitely tune in. [02:07] And then we talked about what's going on in our DAO. Lots of content, media. Open question marks. Lots of open question marks. But essentially, it's like, what does... [02:17] a Web3 media platform, [02:20] company look like? Where does the money come from? Does it come from advertisers? Does it come from individuals? Sort of some existential questions. Do you know that meme of that woman who has all the math equations behind her? That's what I feel like right now. That's us. And then we talked about feelings of what happens when [02:39] the Dow starts growing and you start losing... [02:44] The tentacles expand beyond your human capacity to keep up with them. Which, by the way, the TLDR, it's great. Totally. It's totally great, but it's not without some feelings. It's not without feelings. As it always is. And then there's some draft tweets, as always. So enjoy. Give it a listen. [03:08] Kevin Awake is the founder of Gitcoin, host of the Green Pill podcast and author of Green Pilled, How Crypto Can Regenerate the World. He is a big-time DAO guy, a big-time public goods guy, a big-time regen, very much a lover of coordination. We'll hear all about that on today's show, but first, welcome, Kevin. Hey there. Thanks so much for having me. Excited to be here. Totally. So as is tradition with our guests, we like to do something called Explain the Tweet, where we ask our guests to explain one of their iconic tweets.

[03:38] either iconic or inscrutable, where we just totally don't understand it. And in the case of yours, it's a little bit the latter. Okay. So this is the one that we've chosen for you. [03:50] Thank you. [03:50] All right. [03:51] tweeted by Kevin Awake. He is an eight, but he thinks public goods are just for hippies to worry about. [04:00] and doesn't see the high upside in networked goods. [04:04] Now, Natasha, what's your level of comprehension on this tweet? Okay. Well, first of all, this is a favorite format to me. Like he's a, she's a, so a plus there. Um, I feel like I'm high on the, like conceptually where we're headed. Like he, this, this eight has a very narrow view of what public goods are and doesn't see the upside. Um, yeah. [04:28] I don't know what a networked good is. That's a question mark for me. Same. And I'm very excited to dig into public goods generally with you because – [04:39] You're a public good guy. So I feel like passing off to you. Take it away. [04:44] Yeah, totally. Um, [04:46] Well, so basically, you know, the format is basically... [04:51] He's a... [04:52] number out of 10, but, and then there's some sort of thing, which is like the joke of the tweet, right? So that's, that's the wrapper that, that we're working in. Um, and, and I think that basically the idea here is to, is to talk about why we care about public goods. So basically, you know, I'm, I'm in Boulder, Colorado, and there's lots of people that look like me and have, uh, like ponytails and like, are really into hippies and like outdoors and that kind of stuff.

[05:22] the patchouli public goods type of people are kind of in it for the vibe and in it for the uh totally tracking totally tracking yeah in it because they they love the outdoors here in colorado and of course clean air and sunshine is a public good is non-excludable it is non-rivalrous um and you know the fun thing about about this space is that there's people who are in it for all sorts of different reasons right you've got the hyper capitalists on one side you've got the [05:52] sovereign individual, privacy people in one corner. And then you've got the public goods, it's all coordination, solar punk kind of group in another corner. And what I'm trying to do at this point, I think, is build bridges between all of those people. So what would it look like if there was a way that we could fund public goods, so like solar punk values, sustainability, [06:22] So like we don't we don't need taxes in order to fund our digital public goods. And then the third value system is is like money. Right. And so basically, the idea here is that public goods aren't just for hippies anymore. What if we could rewrite the systemic incentives of of blockchain projects such that they could all be delivering positive externalities and public goods, but they would be profitable, too. Right. They're not just like a loss leader, something you do for an ESG mandate.

[06:52] You invest in them because they're actually the things that are the most adapted to produce the most return. So basically the idea there is like he's an eight, but I actually don't even have the tweet in front of me, but he's an eight, but doesn't see the upside in investing in public goods is basically saying like, [07:11] you know, you, the reader, should see the upside in regen projects and public goods. Like, hey, maybe the next wave, [07:20] of these projects is going to be the ones that have the most impact or the most positive externalities, not the ones that have the best Ponzi-nomics. And so I'll pause there in case there's anywhere to dive in and then we can talk about network goods. Great, great. I mean, I love this vision that you're casting of the world and I'm getting totally sold, but I'd love for you to just zoom out a little bit and define public goods. [07:46] Yeah, totally. Well, we probably should have done that up front. But we'll take a second shot at it now. So public goods are goods that are non-excludable and non-rivalrous. And that basically just means that if I download an open source software repository, I cannot be stopped from downloading it. It's non-excludable because the code's available for free on GitHub. [08:16] Those two things are public goods. Open source software is a public good. Clean air and clean water is a public good. And basically stuff you get on Amazon, like if I buy a like a Drake CD on Amazon, then that stops you from consuming that one unit of Drake. And so so basically that's the difference between public and private goods.

[08:39] Yeah, I think I'd love to hear your definition of network goods as well. We also like in the public goods conversation. [08:49] We sort of wonder sometimes if... [08:52] Like we, as Boys Club, we sort of get bucketed in a public goods environment. [08:58] like container. And I think it's because we do a lot of work centering the voices of women and non-binary individuals, but part of, um, and you know, in a way like that's, that's great. And we love that. But on, on the other hand, it also feels for us, like in our, I think probably quite narrow, like definition of what a public good is, it can feel really limiting where we're like, man, these people aren't taking us seriously. They think we're sort of just this like nonprofit [09:28] our ambition is to build a very big business. And so your tweet really resonates with us because I think like we, we were sort of coming into this conversation being like a public good is one thing, but you're basically saying that like, [09:38] No. [09:39] that there is... [09:40] Like that we can expand sort of the definition a little bit. Is that, does that track with you? Yeah, I think so. [09:48] So, so, so basically, you know, the way I connect these two things is that, and by the way, Gitcoin gets bucketed in the exact same way. People think that we're just kind of charity 3.0 and that it will never, like, never be something that is systemically important or, and so, so basically, like, I empathize with you on that level.

[10:10] that we could [10:12] So y'all are going to do something that's important on its own. But I do think that diversity and inclusion is a public good because it creates the good of anti-fragility in these networks and in these DAOs that perspectives come from anywhere and that we're not just representing a narrow sliver of humanity. And that creates anti-fragility in the design decisions because it allows these things to cast a wider net in who they're going to reach and stuff like that. [10:42] I'm not saying that's the only thing that's good about Boys Club. There's lots of good things about y'all. But that's how I would frame the public goodness of what you're doing in the space. It's building a pipeline of inclusion and acceptance and warmth for people who would not otherwise be represented. How does that land? Yeah. [11:00] I love that. I love that. That's great. I love it. [11:02] That checks out for me. Okay, so talk to us about networked goods. Yeah. So basically, okay, so public goods are goods that are non-excludable, which basically means that I can't stop you from excluding them, even if I'm the government, and non-rivalrous, which basically means that Natasha downloads this open source repository, and that doesn't stop me. [11:32] if I'm submitting my bug report back to an open source software repository, that makes it better for Natasha. So it's anti-rivalist. The consumption of my incremental unit of open source is...

[11:42] makes things better for Natasha. Same thing with Ethereum. The more people have Ethereum wallets in the world, the more people I can transact with in the world. And just to connect it back to the idea of diversity and inclusion as a public good, I'm not in an underrepresented category, but I can imagine that if I was, so my mirror neurons are firing right now, that if I were to [12:12] I would feel more comfortable. So like the more incremental units of a public, of someone participating in something creates more value for everyone else. And that's the idea of a networked good. So basically there's network effects in these systems and they become more valuable over time. And this is why, and to connect it back to the original point, these things are growing in value over time. [12:34] And that's why they're fundamentally investable. If the network effects are swimming, I'm not sure which way I'm orienting, but I'm trying to make an up into the right graph with my hand right here. We got you. If number go up, if value go up, [12:47] then that's why you're short-sighted to just think of it as this like hippy-dippy patchouli Boulder, Colorado thing, because numbers go up because of the networkness of it. [12:54] It's so inspiring because it's like that I'm, you know, very new to this world, to the crypto world. Like we started Boys Club the day that I like got a wallet. So I'm like definitely new to everything. And so much of this process has been Dina giving me holding my hand through the Dow process and and like rubbing my back as I'm like, this is so inefficient. It's so difficult. And the continued sort of.

[13:23] uh, mantra from, from Dina has always been like, there's so much upside in what can happen, the flywheel effect of a DAO, this like network effect. And so it's so interesting to hear you talk about it also in relationship to like actual goods as well, like open source software and all of these things, like what happens when you have, um, what, um, what, what, what, what, [13:45] like I see a lot of inefficiency around like having a lot of cooks in the kitchen, but there's actually this like amazing, um, [13:51] like refinement process that happens the more people are involved and invested and feel a part of what they're building um so and that's that really goes back to what you're saying around um what what is what is possible within web3 that makes the world really a better place with that sort of um like community building and community-minded approach to creation which is totally really inspiring and the difference for me between too many cooks in the kitchen and we're all [14:21] a really efficient like value router that is able to help everyone contribute to the greatest degrees of their skills resources and abilities like to me this is where it comes back to it's all coordination which is another meme that i've put out there hopefully it's not as inscrutable as this tweet but like if we're all coordinating to achieve our shared needs then by definition we're creating more value for everyone and uh i think that there's you know we all have to find how to get those cooks in the kitchen to work work together this person's a line chef this person's [14:51] shaft and then we all rotate because it's decentralized like there's there's a lot of magic in there i'm i'm hand-waving away a lot of this stuff but but yeah i think there's a lot of upside to figuring it out

[15:00] Yeah, one of the other tweets that we actually almost pulled for you to explain was your tweet on DAOs. [15:07] Um, I, you think that you're not going to have, like you go to work for a DAO and you think you're not going to have a boss, but you actually end up having like a hundred bosses who are your peers. Um, that really, that really lands for us. Like we're definitely, it really came, really came right home. I think we're trying to figure out like. [15:23] Yeah, this idea of like a value router, I see it in theory and I really get the vision and I get sort of the world that you're sort of picturing. [15:35] In practice, it's really hard. It's really challenging. And it's so human. And I think for a lot of – it's different if it's software or protocol. It's a lot more straightforward. The lanes are more clearly defined. But for a DAO like ours, which is a little bit media, it's a little bit sort of community, it's – [15:58] Less sort of binary, figuring out a way to create that value router in such a way that's really efficient is... [16:07] It's challenging. And, you know, we're committed to the vision of, you know, we're committed to the DAO lifestyle because we really are like we see incredible potential value in having this idea of shared ownership and shared upside. But like the operations of it is tricky. So but, you know, you clearly get that.

[16:30] Yeah, I think that there's really a lot of Greenfield... [16:35] to or there's there's a lot of opportunity to understanding how we can kind of coordinate in this networked way so we're in different time zones and maybe not even the same country so there's there's time zone arbitrage there's cultural arbitrage and then also on top of that we're talking about complex things like public goods that you have to like you know i have to like [16:56] quarter you at a party for like and like talk to you for like three minutes for you to even get what public goods are so you're talking like high levels of abstraction um and then there's like shared ownership slash governance and then you on top of that you also have to figure out uh gas fees and consensus networks and there is it's just there's a lot of ground to cover with with with how we coordinate in these in these things but like the good news is someone's going to build a [17:22] over the next three or four years, and then everyone else will just be able to copy what's working. So we're kind of in that exploratory space in which it's kind of a primordial soup, and there's thousands of experiments that are bubbling and maybe blossoming, and then maybe hopefully we can copy what works once we see what's working. The cross-pollination is another level of the game, is how do Dalles cross-pollinate with each other. So I don't know. I'll keep sending inscrutable tweets, and we can keep on wrapping about this stuff. [17:52] How's that sound? [17:54] Yeah, honestly, like part of why I'm so excited to have you on the pod this week is because now I feel like I know you, Kevin, and I can slide in, like hit a little reply on some of the tweets that I'm not getting and being like, hey, don't get this one. Break it down for me like I'm a five year old and let's go from there.

[18:24] take sort of the... [18:27] the mud that we're wading through right now and like sorting out and like we're going to get to a point where like there's a process and there's a business and there's something here that's sort of community oriented and owned and then like [18:39] Yeah, that sort of playbook is forked by 100 other communities that appeal to other different types of people around the world. So our vision is very much in line with yours. Now, to wrap this up, I just have a personal question, Kevin. A personal question for you. We have a segment on the podcast called A Feelings Check-In, where we check in on each other's feelings. And I have a quick feelings check-in with you, which is you have this – [19:06] utopian vision [19:08] And... [19:09] You are so, I can tell you're so deeply, you have such deep conviction around it. And I'm just like wondering how you are so relentlessly optimistic. [19:24] in light of so much in this industry that we're working in. Like, how do you fuel that optimism? I'm just like, [19:30] I want a piece of it. So I'm asking selfishly. Yeah. I can give you a hit. [19:38] So, you know, I don't know if this podcast is an audio or in video format, but if it's in video format, because I'm taking it in my car, you can see two car seats. [19:46] behind me. And, you know, when I wrote the Green Pill book, I... [19:54] I dedicated it to Generation Alpha. May they inherit a better world from their parents than their grandparents inherited from their parents. So basically, this idea of progressive iteration, is the world getting better, is, I think, one that's a real big question for us as we're in this time in which a lot of these industrial age institutions are kind of...

[20:16] are decaying or we're kind of losing faith in them. Congress has a 9% approval rating here in the United States. And there's kind of a feeling that the middle class is shrinking. And I'm a big believer that we're moving from the industrial age [20:35] into the information age? And what if we could just build these information age institutions, these hyperstructures that are going to support... [20:43] humanity at web scale. So taking democracy and making it high resolution, taking coordination and building collective intelligence systems that allow us to have UBI and then have decentralized quadratic funding-based rewards for the work that we're doing in our community. And I just see this vision so clearly of, like, [21:02] Software is eating the world and crypto is eating software. So what if we could like light this spark of coordination and collective intelligence inside of crypto and it just like, [21:13] fractally goes out into the world. And we're building new information-age institutions that can support everyday people. So the book, by the way, I wrote a book called Green Pilled, How Crypto Could Regenerate the World. And now the next step is just to figure out [21:29] Like how we write the next edition, which is crypto is regenerating the world. And all we got to do is draw the rest of the owl from here. We just got to turn that could into an is. And we're all good. I have chills. I have chills. This is this was amazing. What a great what a great note to end on. Kevin, thank you so much. This was truly inspiring. So great talking with you. Thanks so much.

[21:57] Do not. [21:59] What's happening in our DAO this week? We're thinking a lot about content and money. [22:04] And how those two things relate. Okay. [22:07] Okay. Uh, [22:09] Yeah, that's the big, that's the headline news. Yeah, the headline news is basically, will people pay? Will people pay for boys' club content? That's the question, actually. [22:18] Because... [22:19] We provide a lot of content right now that's free. [22:22] And the whole world provides a lot of content. All of the content is free. [22:26] All the content in the world is free. Well, that's not actually true. No, all the content coming out of Boy Scout is free. [22:30] yeah exactly all the content coming out of voice club is free and so we're working on this media experiment and we've been like [22:39] I really want to get at [22:41] will people pay for something from boys club? Like that's a big question to have because we do a lot of, [22:47] And... [22:49] I talk to my husband about this all the time where I'm like, wow, people really love Boys Club. And he's super supportive and I love him. But he's like, yeah, I mean, you guys provide a ton of value and you don't charge anything. Like, of course they're obsessed with you. And I'm like... [23:01] Okay, yeah, but like, [23:03] And then that's kind of stuck with me because I'm like, at some point this needs to be a sustainable business at some point. Yeah. And I think we have, [23:11] to... [23:12] sort of [23:13] frames of thinking. It's like, [23:15] A thing that we have clearly... [23:18] gotten right in some capacity where people [23:21] have given us positive feedback and there's like some metrics to support this is that like we produce content that people really like and people engage with and people enjoy and

[23:33] that's a thing that we can look at and point to and say like, okay, we figured a little bit of something out here for our audience and our community. Mm-hmm. [23:42] What we haven't figured out is like, where's the sustainable business in boys club? Yeah. Like, where's the money? And it's not about just like... [23:50] actually compensation. It's about like, at some point, you know, [23:55] you have to be able, like for the business that you and I want to build, for like the ambitions that we have for Boys Club, there's got to be [24:03] a model that you can point to that has some reoccurring revenue. Like that's just what it needs to be. So we've been like mulling that over and then thinking about how does that relate to the things that we have currently, [24:15] a proof point around that we've done [24:17] quote unquote successfully. So we're like, okay, [24:20] Natural fit. Do a test. [24:23] around some piece of media, some content, [24:26] thing in the world that people have to pay for. But then that opened up a whole conversation that you brought to me. [24:34] That like post-dinner uh-oh feeling. [24:38] And do you want to talk a little bit about that? Yeah. I mean, I think so. Yes, definitely always constantly and relentlessly looking for the sustainable, repeatable revenue in Boys Club. I feel like that conversation isn't new to people who have been listening to the podcast. [24:56] And... [24:57] And yeah, in order for us, for this to be a healthy thing, there needs to be, yeah, that needs to be present. And so I think that, yeah, we're looking at media, looking at content and like in this Web3 world, it's...

[25:12] like ownership economy, like you, individuals have the sort of, [25:19] are able to buy digital goods? And does that extend to this idea of media as well? And I think that... [25:29] We were sort of playing around with something that looked like gated content for Boys Club. And by the way, this doesn't extend to all Boys Club content. This is a very specific, distinct project that we're... [25:44] Like experiment. So it's not like we're gating the discord and charging much money. Like it's not, that's not at all where we're going with this. We're just like, we're, we're running an experiment here and just seeing. [25:53] Unlike a discreet thing. Very discreet. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, [25:58] So we're thinking about like, okay, what if we gate some content in this one area and we package it up in this interesting way and then we sort of are selling access to that through NFTs or whatever it is. [26:13] And... [26:13] I guess we were sort of going along with that idea and sort of jamming on it and doing some scoping and stuff. And then... [26:20] And then I was just like, man, we have all of the content we've ever wanted. [26:25] at our fingertips at all time for free. [26:29] We have the whole entirety of the internet. [26:33] Why would like... [26:35] In our year of the Lord, 2022, anyone throw down money to pay for content. And...

[26:42] And I just felt like really insecure in sort of the fundamentals of that idea of being like gating content. [26:50] Or gating media and... [26:52] when like [26:55] there's, [26:56] endless scrolling. I mean, there is endless scrolling, but there is, [27:01] People do pay for content. [27:03] Like there is... [27:04] There is content that people pay for. I mean. How many sub stacks do you pay for? Don't do that. [27:10] Zero. No, I mean, I pay for one. One. I pay for one sub stack. Yeah. [27:14] It's a travel thing, so it's on the corporate card. Nice, nice, nice. Yeah, of course. People do pick. There's, of course... [27:23] Exceptions to this rule. Absolutely. Totally. [27:26] um, [27:27] But like... [27:29] like, um, neutral state. [27:32] it's really hard to get people to pay for content. Yeah. And... [27:36] I guess it came back to like... [27:38] I [27:39] the whole idea with Web3. [27:43] is that... [27:44] you are an owner in the thing. And so when you're looking at content, it's like, okay, as someone who's going to [27:54] purchase this thing and hold it in my wallet, there is an inherent value. The assumption, the thing that you're sort of betting on is that there's an inherent value in that thing that you're buying that makes it worth collecting. Right. But that's collecting. That's not consuming media. That's actually, that's a different experiment. It's like, are people, will people buy collectibles from Boards Club? We sort of have already run that experiment. And I think the answer there is sort of yes. Right.

[28:19] So then why do people buy NFTs? Because they're collectors? [28:23] I mean, there's, I think like when you look at the root behavior, it's like a collecting behavior. [28:30] Mm-hmm. And I just don't know how that extends to media. I just don't know. I don't know, like, if it's, like, gated content, like, [28:39] I mean, I guess, like, that collectible element will always be there. But I don't know. So one thing that, like, we were thinking... Okay, so there's a couple different avenues that we could take here. One thing that we were thinking about was... [28:49] Do we like port over a web to... [28:54] Media model. Yep. Or traditional media model where... [28:58] In this content experiment, we bring in some advertisers. Let's bring them in. Advertisers. And get them to sort of subsidize the cost for... [29:09] Thank you. [29:10] our community and our audience to consume it. [29:13] And there's something really beautiful in that because that means that – [29:17] whatever company is footing the bill and... [29:20] Everyone else can enjoy the content for free. And our team... [29:24] can get paid. So, like, we have the means to do the work and to create the content that we want to do. And so, there's something in that that works. Obviously, it's problematic in a lot of different ways. Um... [29:38] And I don't think it's a particularly interesting experiment to run, but there is a part of me that's like... [29:44] Is there something in that? [29:46] That is... [29:47] that [29:48] is compelling. Right. Um, and then the other thing I've been thinking about is we had a great conversation with, uh, Marty from pool suite the other day and he has like his lens on the world. Mm hmm.

[30:01] is distribution first. Like he's always thinking about distribution and he's always thinking about how does his sort of universe of stuff that he has going on, [30:11] Add value onto each other. So he's thinking about this media property over here. How is it bringing people into this thing over here? How is it? And he just has a really elegant way that he approaches his. It's really amazing, actually. It's amazing. It's incredible to talk to him. And so in that world, I'm like. [30:31] Man, if we're thinking distribution first, like gating content and having people pay and putting that friction in front of something that like actually we'd love to have distributed very widely. I'm not sure that that like makes sense. I can't balance that out. Because basically like, I mean, we've talked about this before, but there's like concentric circles that we think about with Boys Club. It's like our core team is like this core circle. And then around that is a larger circle is like our community. And then the third circle. [31:01] circle that's like sort of endless and boundless is like audience. And as you, as we've like sort of been feeling like we're hitting the ceiling with our community in an appropriate and healthy way of what growth looks like for a real community that's connected to one another, we're, [31:17] Then our... [31:18] Like our goals have really shifted to like, how are we thinking really, really expansively and strategically about technology? [31:24] growing audience and having aggregating eyeballs as much as possible. And so when you're looking at like a paid business,

[31:32] media experiment where it's gated. You're not going to get the eyeballs. You're not going to grow audience in like a significant way. So then that goes, okay. Then the question becomes, okay, is this for our community? Is this for NFT holders? Is this for someone who is more core to boys club? And then, [31:51] Then your question becomes like, [31:53] is that who you want to have as the person paying for a voice club? Right. And that feels not right either. It doesn't feel right. Yeah. So I think just to underline what you're saying is that like, if we're creating content for our core community, mm-hmm, [32:09] it does not feel right to have that be... [32:12] Charged. Charged, yeah. Because we don't want to be extracting... [32:16] money and stuff from our community. It's not what we're about. And so... [32:22] I think that, yeah, I think that that's actually the crux of... [32:26] And I, yeah, I think that that's actually the crux of it. Yeah. So this, this little media experiment that was supposed to be like, let's do like a fast and quick little thing that like we validate some things has become Pandora's box around what, what we're doing at Boys Club. [32:46] But... [32:46] If you have any thoughts on content, paid content, [32:49] Let us know. [32:51] If you think we should just become a web to advertising, this podcast brought to you by traditional advertisers. You're joking, but that... But like, honestly, you would like to speak on that. Yeah, maybe. Maybe not.

[33:12] Man, I'm in Las Vegas for my day job. [33:14] And I have such a Las Vegas voice right now. [33:18] Very sultry. Very sultry. [33:22] We love Las Vegas. Lots of love for Las Vegas. The most love for Las Vegas. We love it. It's one of my favorite places to be. [33:30] I love to gamble. The birthplace of boys club is Las Vegas. So it feels, um, how much USD do you have per to spend on this, uh, on gambling? This is a pretty low, low USD moment for me. Um, on the gambling budget, I'm putting around $200 a night to go towards my, I mean, it's not nothing, not nothing, but it's just like, I don't know. Some people on this, on this call, on this zoom, um, [34:00] on this, listening to this podcast would be like, [34:03] Like gambling people, people that gamble would be like, that's some bullshit. You only win big if you like bet big and like 200 bucks. What is that? But like, you know, you're... [34:13] your like low-key gambler is gonna be like wow that's [34:16] that's a lot of money. Yeah. Yeah. But less, you're sort of in an in between, you're in a funny in between. I'm in a funny in between on money. Um, uh, a Natasha Hoskins story, a funny in between amount of money. Um, anyway, um, I love, I love, I love gambling. It's so fun. It's so fun. Yeah. Yeah. You really do. You really get a lot of joy. I do, which I love, I love, I do get a lot of joy out of it. Um, [34:41] So anyway, we'll see how that goes tonight. I'll keep you posted. Do you have like a gambling buddy with you there? Not really. Or are you going to go solo? I'm going to go solo. I like going solo unless I'm really close to somebody because I don't like –

[34:55] When someone doesn't know how to gamble and I'm not good friends with them, what ends up happening is they sit next to you and they try to gamble and then they ask you what they should do every single move. Yeah. And when you're like I did the last time. Like you did last time. But when it's your really good friend, it's really fun because you can. Yeah. You're like not as nervous about them losing money. And like I told you, like, I'm not responsible for whatever happens. Like and you were like, totally. This is not financial advice. This is not financial advice. [35:19] Man, this is the loosest feeling check-in Anyway, so I... [35:25] I don't want to do that with people I'm not close with. So I need to find a moment to... [35:30] Sneak off by myself to gamble a little bit. Nice. And then if I'm up. That's not problematic at all. [35:37] Okay. Let's talk about feelings. Let's talk about feelings. How are you feeling? Um... [35:41] I'm feeling... So, yeah. Okay. So, I have some feelings. They're not bad feelings. They're not good feelings. They're just like present. Middle of the road. Oh, nice. I'm just like present to this feeling. So, I feel like... [35:54] Um, [35:56] our core team, [35:57] at Boys Club is truly like a powerhouse of talent. It's like insane. I feel the same way. Yeah. [36:03] I... [36:04] Just every single one of them brings something amazing to the table. They're all just like alphas, major, major alpha vibes. And it's been, it's really cool because what's starting to happen is like the universe and like the tentacles of Boys Club are growing and- [36:20] People are, I think, feeling, like, more confident and more assured in, like, their place in Boys Club and, like, their – our sort of vision for people to, like, take things and run with them and, like, really want that for –

[36:33] For voice club. And what that means is like more and more projects and initiatives and ideas are like getting off the ground and like picking up steam and coming to life. And... [36:44] That is the whole idea of this thing and like the whole idea of a DAO. And it's great. But there's a part of me that's like, it's becoming impossible to – [36:55] To have full visibility on everything that's like happening in Boys Club and full visibility on... [37:03] What the result of that thing is going to be. And that's a little scary. [37:08] Yeah, I think just bringing it to life for people, there was a proposal that some folks on the team were working on. [37:15] And like three months ago, four months ago, we would have been all over that proposal, like making sure that it was exactly like just a perfect expression of Boys Club and our capabilities and everything. [37:28] And it went through, and, like, people have relationships with, like, it just, it went out without, I didn't even see it. I know you spent some time with it. But, like, that is... [37:39] remarkable in... It's remarkable in like how... [37:45] Um, [37:46] much ownership and autonomy that people have in this thing, which is incredible and wouldn't change at all. And also remarkable because it's like, oh, this sort of the... [37:59] The little birdie has, like, flown out of the nest. Totally. And there's, like, we just don't have as much control, which we're just going to have to learn to live with. Yeah. But that's the feeling. Yeah. I think it's, like...

[38:14] I actually, I'm like sort of having a revelation as I'm talking about it. I think some of the fear of it comes from a place of feeling like boys club is very fragile. [38:21] And being used to working on a startup that is very fragile and, like, that every decision you make can, like, make or break the thing that you're working on. And having, like, a real fear around, like, okay, if this thing goes out and it's not – [38:33] write or we have to deliver on something that we don't feel great about or like whatever. I don't even know what the result would be that I wouldn't be excited about or would feel weird about. Um... [38:43] then like the whole thing comes crashing down. And like, that's actually like a really... [38:47] That's not the way I want to, like, operate in the world. Someone's in a scarcity mindset. Big-time scarcity. [38:54] Big-time scarcity mindset. Yeah, it really is. And it's not – it doesn't come from a place of, like – [39:00] Not trusting anybody on the team or not thinking their work is good or anything like that. Like, that's not it at all. Like, these people are incredibly capable. It's more just like... [39:10] Yeah, feeling like, okay, this thing is really fragile. It feels like what I imagine... [39:17] having someone else like raise your kid feels like where I'm just like, Oh my gosh, like this, this thing that feels like so close to me and to my, to like the, like a thing that I love so much in the world. Like, I, [39:28] Okay. [39:29] Feeling really protective over it in like a because I think there's part of me that feels like it's really fragile. And I actually like I don't think that's true. I think it just comes from. Yeah. [39:40] Yeah. I mean, I think intellectually you know that like –

[39:44] It must live on its own for it to be able to do anything. It must. It shall. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. Totally. Like, it has to. And... [39:53] Um, what I also love about our, um, [39:57] like team is I'd like sent an email being like, Hey, these are some concerns I have or things I want to highlight. And like, [40:03] Sam like discorded me and was like, Hey, I don't want to send anything out that you don't feel good about. Like, [40:07] do you want to talk through this? Like whatever. And I just called her and was like, these are the things I'm worried about. And like, these might be coming from a place that are totally... [40:16] Like, just my own... [40:17] And we had a great conversation about it, and the proposal went out, and it's great, and I'm so impressed with the work. But I just love that there is such a... [40:28] There has... [40:29] become a culture within Boys Club of just being really... [40:33] Holding a lot of space for people's feelings. And that... [40:38] feels very unique to... [40:41] Yeah. To Boys Club. I don't know what that is. I don't know if it's us on a podcast every week talking about our feelings. Sort of breeds that culture, but I really love it. Like, I really love it. Yeah, I think it – I feel really – well, first of all, a couple things in that. One, I don't think that Boys Club is as fragile as some of the other startups that we've had. Oh, I don't know. Like, we've tried to – that were sort of, like, fledgling things that we were trying to, like – [41:07] get off the ground and like in those like really, really, really early stage moments, like it, it,

[41:14] You could make the wrong move and the whole thing could... [41:17] So in a really legitimate way. I think that we're a little bit past that in boys. I mean, obviously, we need to be very careful and very thoughtful about everything we do. And we will continue to do that. But I don't think it's as fragile as both you and I think that it might be. Like, I do think it's starting to feel a little bit more robust. And so I think you should, like, sort of take some comfort in that. Totally. That, like, I think everyone sort of gets the vision. Yeah. And no one's, like... [41:42] And I think that people feel really responsible for stewarding that and – [41:47] I think that that's, I think we can count on that. Yeah. Time with folks. Yeah. [41:53] Do you have any feelings? I forgot my second point. [41:55] I mean, I feel similarly. [41:57] I feel like... [41:59] Yeah, I feel similarly. And I think that, yeah, I think, um, [42:02] I feel really... [42:04] Like secure in knowing that if there's something that's coming up that's bothering me, like I had something that came up that was really bothering me about a proposal or sort of a semi-proposal that I put through to the team a couple weeks ago, last week or something like that. [42:21] And man, I felt like it was like really eating at me. And I was like, look, guys, I got to talk about it. And we scheduled a call and we talked about it. And I'm not going to say that on that call, I felt totally at peace. But like at least I aired out what I was feeling completely. And then everyone heard me. They saw me. They listened. We talked about it. We worked through it. And yeah.

[42:45] I think that, like, it didn't, it didn't, it didn't, like, say pent up in a way that I think, like, certainly on my day job, like, I probably would have just, like, okay, I'm putting that in a box and shutting that drawer forever. [42:58] Because I don't have that space to, like, talk about my feelings, you know, and I think that, like... [43:02] Yeah, I think that that is unique to... [43:05] To the culture of Boys Club. And I just like... Yeah. I think that that's like everything. [43:10] So... [43:11] That's a feelings dragon. There it is. Them's the feelings. [43:23] Okay, Dina. Okay, Natasha. Any draft tweets? Oh, no. You're putting me on the spot. Um... [43:31] I really have a few that all are like, I feel like I say this every week. They're not very good. They're really not very good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes the tweets are better left in the draft. [43:41] Sometimes there's a reason why they're in the draft. Okay, this one... [43:48] Someone stopped me on the street today and said, quote, are you friendly? And I looked up and so genuinely said, not right now. This really happened. [44:00] I was just like, not today. Not today. Not right now. Not right now. Is there ever a moment where you say yes to that situation? Um... [44:12] I think I don't think I wouldn't say you're friendly. [44:15] Oh, thank you, actually. Actually, I really like that. I don't aspire to be friendly. I just don't. It's just not my brand. It's off brand. So I don't think I would ever say yes. You're right. I would never say yes, but I think I would be nicer in my response. I was very much like, back off, dude. And he was just like, ooh, ooh, not happening. And I was like, man, if this is some like, think piece video where he's like going around, like there's a friend in a window, like, yeah.

[44:45] It's not a good look for me. Yeah. [44:48] Okay, what's yours? [44:49] Anything? My, what's that? [44:52] Any draft tweets? Yeah, I mean, I've won. It's really dominant from a couple weeks ago. It made sense at the time. [44:58] It really made sense at the time. And now I'm reading it and it's aged poorly. It was when I was at ECC. So just setting the stage, ECC and... [45:09] We're in Paris and... [45:12] Um, [45:14] I'll just stop there. And then afterwards, I'll have to explain a little bit more. She's a 10, but she's not going to the actual conference. [45:24] So in Paris, that was just like constantly. Everyone's like, yeah, I'm here in Paris, but I'm not going to the actual conference. Because they sold out tickets. [45:33] That's perfect. That's a great tweet. Oh, I'm sad you didn't. Yeah, it would have in the moment. In the moment, it would have. It would have maybe. Maybe I'll save it for... [45:41] the next conference perfect perfect uh okay all right bye [45:47] *music*