Feelings Check-In: MetaBirkin briefing, Bored Ape Yacht House in Miami, hard convos with the Boys Club DAO

[00:00] I-- [00:00] You know what's really sad is when I put my ring light on, [00:04] a few weeks ago when I first got it, I was like, wow. [00:08] This is... [00:09] is amazing. I look incredible. And now after using it for a few weeks, I'm like... [00:14] Oh, it wears off. [00:16] I still think you're looking good. Thank you. Thank you. But like, you know what I mean? Where you're like, oh, you've gotten used to yourself looking now. [00:22] a certain way and it's a little bit of a bummer welcome to the feelings check-in a feelings first look at the news of the week takes no one asked for on topics everyone's talking about i'm natasha hoskins i'm dina burke and this is boys club wait is it just boys club it's just boys club the boys club podcast no no [00:44] Just boys club. [00:45] I feel like we need to bring back what is boys club. [00:49] Fun. What a fun thing to do. Okay. Do you know what is boys club? [00:55] I would love for you to answer the question. Okay. [00:58] Okay. I'm having an identity crisis today. You need someone to tell you what it is. I need to be told. Okay. Boys Club is a social collective. [01:07] bringing new voices to the new internet. We do that through a community where we experiment, collaborate, work to make our mark on that new internet in a tangible way. And then we do a ton of media work. [01:24] podcasts, newsletters, events, events, [01:28] Really, really fun events that bring people together and...

[01:31] for networking and collaboration. And we do merch and we're experimenters. [01:38] That's the main thing that Boys Club is. [01:41] I think that is the main thing that Forest Club is. That's us. That's us. [01:45] It's a really good time. [01:47] It's a really good time. I was struck by, I was listening to Blake's podcast with the Psyche founder, Alice De La Hunt, and really recommend that podcast. It's a really great listen if you're interested at all in digital fashion. She comes from traditional fashion in a major way. Like very, very legitimate and is moving to this new frontier with digital fashion. Just brings a ton of credibility and like legitimacy, I think, to... [02:15] to digital fashion. My point is though, that one of the, one thing that I was struck by in that interview was, uh, [02:21] Blake asked her what Psyche was and she was like, [02:25] Psyche is three things. It's a community. It's a platform. And she said one other thing that I can't remember, but like it was very. [02:32] incubator yeah it was very tight it was very tight [02:36] And... [02:37] The dream. I still don't. [02:40] think we're there i don't think we're there either but we're doing quite a bit of work to figure that out [02:47] And we build in public. So we don't know what it is quite yet exactly. And we're telling you that because... [02:55] Maybe you know. If you know... [02:59] DM us. I love that though. It's inspiring when you hear somebody else like articulate something clearly. It really is. It really is. And it gave me like some goalposts to be like, wow, I'd love to, I'd love to get to a point where I can.

[03:11] talk about what boys club is in a sentence that is so crisp like that yeah nice [03:17] aspirational [03:18] Yeah. Okay. So the feelings check-in is a podcast where we unpack and share our feelings on two news stories from the past week. [03:31] Yeah, just sort of like what our take is on it. And then we share our... [03:38] own feelings. [03:39] about what's happening in the work of Boys Club. Yeah. [03:49] I'm doing the Meta Birkin story. Okay. [03:54] How familiar are you with the Men at Work and Story? What I know is that there was a creator who released a... [04:02] collection of NFTs. [04:04] called meta Birkins and they look like Birkin bags. And then I know that they got sued, but that's all I know. Yes. Okay, great. Great. Great. Great. Well, I'm going to give a little bit of a briefing for folks because it's a really interesting story and it has... [04:17] pretty compelling implications for [04:20] the digital goods industry as a whole. So it's a good sort of primer and what's happening there. Okay. So the story starts in... [04:30] France. [04:31] We're in France. We're at Hermes. Hermes, French luxury fashion house started in 1873. [04:38] 186 years old. No wonder they were like, fuck you and your NFTs. Yeah.

[04:45] So just for context, the logo is like a little horse with a cart. And I think what that really illustrates for me is just like we're heritage. We're a real heritage brand. I cannot get more heritage than I was. It's famously owned by the Dumas family. There's this quote where they protect their family ownership like quote unquote Fort Knox. Just to give you a sense of the levels of protection that are happening around the family, the brand, the ownership, the company. Okay, so the Birkin bag. [05:11] It's, [05:12] Really just a square leather bag with pockets and a little lock and key in the front. For you to say it's just a and then describe a Birkin is... [05:21] It is functionally just a square leather bag with pockets and a little lock and key. I just want to be clear that that is what it is. That is kind of an oversized, like most of them are oversized tote bag with like straps and pockets. Dina, you are sacrilegious at the moment around. I get it. There's there's the lore of Birkin bags and I'll get into that. But like functionally, this is what it is. [05:46] It is, [05:49] Though, to your point, the holy grail of handbags. It is all made start to finish by a single craftsman. The lore around Birkin bags is just... [05:58] It's like... [05:59] out of control [06:01] Drake apparently has a collection of Perkins that he's been buying over the years. I would say that there is a for his future wife. [06:08] I would say that there is no greater female symbol of wealth than a Birkin bag. I think that's true. I think that's true. So for context, it starts around $8,000 for mini, but they can go upwards of $30,000. It's usually between $20,000 and $30,000 that they sell for. One was sold in 2019 for $400,000. There's years of a wait list. You can't just go into Hermes and be like, I want to buy a Birkin. That's not going to happen. It's this whole system and

[06:38] thing that goes into who and how and when you can buy it. That's why it's a symbol of not just like new money, but wealth, because it's like, [06:46] to be able to buy a Birkin. [06:48] is [06:49] in and of itself, a status symbol. [06:52] Totally. Okay, so that's one side of the story. The other side of the story is Mason Rothschild. He's this very cool digital artist. I went to his Instagram page and I was poking around. We have a vintage Range Rover photo. We have like a minimalist photography in Japan. He's a reading very cool guy. Okay, cool. [07:22] Anyway, so it's him. He's this artist. He created the Meta Birkin line of NFTs. They were NFTs where the image was this very cool, like artsy interpretation of a Birkin bag. But instead of the leather, like exterior, they were all sort of these... [07:41] absurdist, fuzzy, and had like another world feel. He brought in like a cuteness to the bag that [07:50] felt very fresh and I think part of what made it so viral is because a traditional Birkin is it's a very serious bag. [07:58] And this felt very fun and playful and internet native. [08:02] Yeah, totally. That's a great way to describe it. There were 100 of them. One had the member the banana on the wall from Art Basel a couple years ago. One had that taped to the front of it. So to me, seeing them, I'm like, this is

[08:16] clearly a send up of something, but that was not how the judge ruled. But that's basically what happened with the Metaverse line gets a ton of press. It hits in 2021 during NFT NYC. [08:29] Peak market stuff happening around here. They make around a million dollars in secondary. They're selling for about 40k each. Like hype cycle is hot at this moment in time. And the MetaWorkin comes out like right in the middle of all of that. Hermes is like, no. [08:43] and takes him to court. They're like, absolutely not. So the court case is going on for a while. And then in February of this year, a judge said that he, yes, had violated their MS trademark and ruled against Mason Rothschild. And the big conversation during this case is basically like, are these artistic interpretations? Is this art or is this commerce? If it's art, he has coverage under the [09:10] Explore. Okay. And he has a little bit of a license. It's a little bit like the classic... [09:16] Supreme Court case where the judge says about porn. [09:21] I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it. And similarly, Art vs. Commerce... [09:26] That's sort of a similar thing that's going on here. [09:29] Totally the world that we're in. Yeah. So Mason's like, no, I'm critiquing the high fashion world. [09:35] I have these First Amendment rights. And the judge and jury are like, no, he's leveraging the name to sell something. And he's [09:42] intentionally misleading consumers. So I think an important nuance about this case is that it's actually, it's,

[09:49] It's trademark. It's not copyright. So it's all about the use of the word Birkin. Right. And it's not about the bag image necessarily. But by using the Birkin name, that was misleading to consumers who were confused and who legitimately thought that this was an extension of the Birkin line. And so... [10:06] It was... [10:08] Hermes is... [10:09] NFT project. [10:10] I do too. [10:11] I did too. So I think that that's like kind of the rub. Okay, so that's what happened in February. And then this week, there was some more news where basically a federal judge in the Southern District of New York State [10:21] permanently blocked [10:23] him and his associates from [10:25] from selling or minting or doing anything or basically talking about it at all it effectively ends the case and it's like no no more don't talk about it don't sell them don't secondary them like it's done so that's it wow what does that mean for holders [10:42] In the stories that I saw around this, [10:44] And maybe it's just because the coverage wasn't great, but no one really talked about that. But my understanding is that there's nothing that can be done if these are out in the world. The genie is out in the bottle. They're in these wallets around the world owned by who knows. My understanding is that there's nothing to be done to destroy the collection. Now, [11:01] The big official secondary markets have removed it. OpenSea, for example, it's no longer on OpenSea. They took it down. So there's no official secondary market for it. But like, it's cool contrarand now that can be sold. [11:14] in some... [11:16] art collector telegram chat you know what I mean and I'm sure like it actually increases the price for it now that it's illegal illegal

[11:22] Yeah. [11:23] Now it's like dark web. [11:24] We're dark web. Yeah, we're dark web now. My feelings about this. [11:28] are when i first came across the story i was very much team rmez about it they deserve to protect that asset of theirs but digging into deeper some of the birkins are like so wild and crazy that i'm [11:42] like art. And I do think that I've kind of changed teams. Although I will say we were both deceived and we did think that they're official. So maybe that like kind of whatever. But I think the biggest feeling that I have is that I honestly feel like it kind of legitimizes the digital goods industry. [11:57] where [11:57] It's a recognition. [11:59] that [12:00] This is... [12:02] the legitimate thing product asset that can infringe on trademark. Right, right, right. And, you know, we're in the arena, which is great. What do you think the downstream consequences are based on this ruling? [12:15] I don't think that I'll be launching... [12:19] Boys club [12:21] number five perfume anytime soon. My takeaway is that digital goods are just as legitimate of a brand extension as [12:28] as anything else. [12:30] Cool. What do you think? I think that... [12:35] From what you're telling me, knowing very little about this case, if he had called them metabags, [12:42] or [12:44] not use the word Birkin. [12:47] Mm-hmm. [12:48] then... [12:49] he would have had... [12:51] a much easier time, he wouldn't have...

[12:54] lost this case. Yeah, that's kind of the assumption. [12:57] Yeah. Okay. [12:59] But also the project would have had lost its tooth. [13:03] Like what made it so powerful was this direct correlation between a Birkin and the Beck. I agree. It's disappointing because I love... [13:11] people doing funny, weird stuff on the internet. And I love people... [13:16] especially doing that with luxury, [13:19] ridiculous. [13:21] Things... [13:22] It's so fun for people to poke fun at that and have their own interpretation of it and do interesting things. And this will definitely hinder that type of experimentation. [13:31] Totally. I do think, though, that the argument there is... [13:35] totally do that experimentation and have fun don't sell it and don't profit from it okay [13:41] And I think that is the distinction here where, um, [13:45] he made a ton of money and like he made that money kind of [13:50] in the... [13:52] wake of a much more [13:54] bigger brand that's investing a lot of money to protect that name. And so I think that that's [13:58] kind of the difference. Okay, that's legitimate. Was there... [14:01] Any financial ramification for him? Yeah. So he had to pay something like $135,000 or something back to... [14:11] Hermes, it wasn't about the money for Hermes. They don't really care, but there might be another hit on like a lawyer fee recouping, which is obviously going to be much bigger. [14:21] - Crazy. [14:23] crazy crazy but he's honestly i'd love to have him on the podcast and would love to talk to him although he probably can't talk about this but he has some other stuff that he's doing that we should make it happen yeah story number two okay we're really in nft land this week

[14:41] Mm-hmm. [14:42] I am talking about the Bored Ape Yacht Club. [14:46] Today. [14:48] And I don't think we've ever talked about the board aid club before. I don't think so either. Part of why I wanted to talk about this story is because I was really looking forward to just like dumping on them for 15 minutes. But I'm going to try not to do that. And we're going to give some context for what's happening. [15:05] This week, it was rumored that Bored Ape Yacht Club is going to open a social club, social house, IRL space in Miami, Texas. [15:16] at some point later this year or next year. I cannot think of a place... [15:21] I would like to go less. [15:23] Then the board ate Yacht Club Social House. [15:26] Like, it's hell. [15:28] And then... [15:30] Oh, my God. It's the board eight. [15:32] Social house in Miami. [15:34] Like truly. [15:35] Lucifer for drinks and then here. Um, [15:40] Okay, so here's some context. If you do not know what Bored Ape Yacht Club is or who the [15:48] Yuga Labs [15:50] are, then I'm just going to give you a very quick briefing. So [15:54] board ap yacht club is one of if not the most successful nft projects to date [16:00] The main collection has generated over $2.6 billion worth of trading volume since it launched in April 2021. So absolutely massive project. It is synonymous with NFTs. It is when you walk along the street and you ask someone what an NFT is, they would probably describe to you,

[16:20] It has other projects that have extended within the world of Bored Ape Yacht Club. So Mutant Ape Club, they have a token called ApeCoin, they have a metaverse called Otherside. So they do have a whole extension universe of these digital collectibles and metaverse properties and things like that. [16:42] So that sort of context for the success of the project, the proliferation of the project. Then there's like a cultural side to it. So... [16:52] holders of ape [16:55] apes of any kind are obsessed with the brand and have a reputation that is not great. I would say [17:05] They are the personifications of the worst part of crypto. [17:09] Not all holders. [17:11] You know that quote, like, "Not all men, but this men"? [17:14] That's a little bit what's happening here. [17:16] I know holders. Blake Finucane is a holder. And she's a lovely human being. We could not love her more. But she definitely is... [17:26] An outsider, I would say, to the community, the Bored Ape community. Oh, man, I'm nervous. Down. I'm nervous. What do you mean? [17:34] I'm nervous. That we're going to get roasted? [17:36] Yeah. I'm nervous, like dumping on board apes that like, they're going to like come for us and they're going to come for boys club. They have a bad reputation. Bro. Siefs. [17:45] It was started by four dudes. Two were born and raised in Miami. [17:48] Two are engineers, two are like, actually, I thought they were bankers. And I was sort of having a hard time like getting through all the noise around what they actually do. But I think they actually might be writers. And one was like an editor for a magazine. So which kind of makes sense, because there's a lot of lore associated with this project.

[18:06] Okay, so why are we talking about it now? [18:09] They're... [18:11] is a lot of talk about the Ape Fest event that's happening this year. So Ape Fest is a festival that is put on by Bored Apes. It's open to holders of Bored Ape and of Mutant Ape. You can have a plus one. Historically, they've always done like a two or three night event that is in the evenings during NFT NYC. [18:35] This year they have changed it up and they are doing their own event that's going to be like a three-day conference. [18:43] that they do [18:45] themselves that's all day events and programming and it's rumored to be in miami and it's called fest and it's called ape fest [18:53] - Man, I wonder who had [18:56] Who started first friends with benefits fest or board apes fest. Great question. I'm sure there's receipts in their roadmap in their updated roadmap. They have sort of a wink and a nod to an IRL space that would be in Miami. And so people have started talking about like, okay, there's this energy around a physical space that would take a page from Soho house. [19:26] for passionate members to connect and collaborate. So, [19:30] This is... [19:32] bubbling up now one, because there's a lot of talk about eight fest and it's sort of in conjunction, maybe going to happen around the same time where they're opening this space and they're having this festival. Also,

[19:45] Azuki, which is another huge NFT project, just had an event in Las Vegas. And so that like built up excitement. And then the third reason is really that NFTs and Bored Apes, obviously at the forefront of that, have really taken a massive hit in terms of their value and the industry as a whole. So looking for things for them to be releasing that are novel and maybe not as much leaning on digital collectibles as the main driver. [20:12] Yeah, that makes sense. So that's sort of what's happening now. I want to give some context for the way that this business works. [20:21] looks and how profitable it is compared to a Soho house and what I think is interesting in terms of this compared to a traditional hospitality group. So Yuga Labs is the parent company of Bored Apes Yacht Club. They have all of the subsidiaries of Bored Apes underneath it, as well as owning CryptoPunks and a few other very, very famous IPs in the NFT space. So their financials were leaked [20:51] highlights that I find personally really interesting is in their metaverse land sale, they sold about $300 million worth of metaverse land. [21:02] And it is estimated, based on these financial modelings, that it cost them $4.6 million to bill and sell this land. [21:12] margins on these digital goods are

[21:16] insane, like insane, unheard of margins in terms of what these companies are making. So when you put that in comparison to a Soho house, which has been in business for 30 years and only last year had the first profitable quarter ever in the business of Soho house, it's [21:36] sort of hilarious that well are you serious I am serious [21:40] I am serious. [21:42] 28 years in business. First profitable quarter of that business was last year. It was Q4 2020. [21:49] too. [21:51] That's when I joined. There you go. It was you that topped them over the edge. [21:58] Yes. Here's some stats. Membership Collective Group, Soho House's parent company, reported Wednesday, this was in March, reported a profit of $13.5 million in the fourth quarter. The company still reported a loss of $221 million that year. [22:19] Soho House is a terrible business. I think you could argue, though, that isn't Soho House's business really the real estate around... [22:28] the [22:28] clubs that they build. Like they do the real estate development and like speculation in the areas surrounding [22:35] their clubs, and then they're hoping that that [22:38] or they're betting that that will give them a return. [22:41] I do think like, yes, that's a long game. It's a long game. It's a very long game.

[22:46] 30 years, one profitable quarter long game. But yes, they're essentially a real estate company. [22:52] more so than an actual members club. Yeah. When you compare that to something like Google Labs, it's really interesting because in this financial model that was linked, one of the slides, which I thought was really interesting, is strategic investments for 2022. And they had three... [23:07] main pillars. One was community building, one was gaming, and one was land sale. And it's hilarious because gaming has a 20x return, the cost of doing it, they estimated would be 28.2 million, and a return of 20x that. And then the land sale, they had the cost of it 4.6 million and $77. [23:27] times that in profit. So gaming and landing is like crazy margin, crazy benefit. And then community building is a cost of 16 million and the return just says priceless. [23:38] It's basically like this is a loss leader. This is going to cost us $16 million to do and we're going to make absolutely no money on it. And really interesting when you're comparing it to Soho House and other businesses that are hospitality groups that are spending a ton for a very, very tiny margin on that work that they're doing. [23:57] Okay, so interesting. Your point is that they would be doing this with like kind of no hope for return on that vertical. [24:06] And they're... [24:08] Yet there are businesses like Soho House where that's kind of the whole... [24:11] gamble. Exactly. Exactly. Interesting. And for me,

[24:16] The feeling that comes up for me is I would never want to go to this place. I can't think of a place I would want to be at less. [24:22] But I will say I do love... [24:27] hospitality. I think that events [24:30] people getting together, people being in the space, IRL experiences, I have a deep conviction about how powerful that can be for a brand and for community building and for affinity to a product. And it is encouraging to see a brand like this make a significant investment in that type of experience for its members, if that is in fact what they're doing. Even if they don't do the [25:00] in a huge festival that will be many days long where they'll bring in, I mean, their ApeFest 2022 festival. [25:07] had huge names like [25:09] LCD sound system, Questlove. They brought in like Amy Schumer, which I thought was a really weird pick, but like love her and would love to have gone to that. So they... [25:19] know that these types of experiences are valuable to members and are willing to make an investment. I think this speaks to a trend around the evolution of NFT based events and IRL experiences for a space, especially when you're seeing sort of a major dip and maybe will it ever return to its around this industry in terms of digital assets. So that's my take. [25:42] I love that. I did see this tweet from David Phelps this morning, actually, that really stuck with me that I think is relevant here. He says, building communities based on tokens is an incredible premise. Like imagine creating a friend group entirely based on not shared interests or projects or work, but just on the fact that you all purchase the same thing.

[26:00] Fuck yes, I met my besties because we all buy Charmin Ultra Soft. And it's like a photo of two people like online with like at like a Walmart or something with like toilet paper in their shopping cart. And then he says Kirkland Dow going strong. So I wonder for a community like... [26:14] Bored Apes, when you all get together in real life, how much actual shared interest there is amongst those [26:22] humans and if they'd find enough of a compelling through line that you'd want to go into that space and i don't know and i don't hang out in board ape discord so maybe they all do talk about the same things and like the same things but a lot of these people are non they built it to speculate like who's going to be actually coming in or and maybe who's coming in is self-selecting for a certain type of person that's in miami that's into crypto and nfts maybe there is some shared interest there but that would feel like a risk [26:50] Yeah, I think the counterpoint I would have to that is a lot of the roadmap for Bored Apes is around gaming. And I think that that is a very powerful shared interest for a lot of people. I don't know that space well enough to really know if... [27:08] I play one game and you play another game if we have a lot in common or not. But [27:12] I do think there's a connection point around that. [27:16] the gateway drug to NFTs for a lot of people was gaming. And so I think there's something there, but I totally agree with you. Sharing... [27:22] the fact that you bought the same thing is not meaningful enough to [27:27] having a deep relationship with somebody.

[27:30] Yeah, friendship. The other thing I'm thinking about is just the mechanics of that house. And if your ape allows you to buy in to access the house, but like presumably there would be a fee or dues for accessing the house on top of your ape or is it free for eight members, but then you say that basically it's a loss leader. So they're not even like they don't even care really about the. [27:51] revenue mechanics of this business it's just like it doesn't smart i don't think so i think it's a marketing expense yeah [27:58] Which... [27:59] more power to him honestly [28:01] Early on in my career, it kind of always haunts me. I worked on this project. [28:05] I guess I can talk about it now. It was called The Patch House. And it was... [28:12] It was Sour Patch Kids, the candies and... [28:18] Sour Patch Kids wanted to... [28:21] The cooler. [28:23] and align with culture kind of I guess a cultural leader sour patch kids [28:30] And so they invested a lot of money into building these things called patch houses. There was one in Brooklyn. There was one in LA. I think there was one in Austin, maybe like Las Vegas or something like that. There was a couple around maybe Nashville. And they... [28:47] were houses that [28:48] musicians that were sort of touring or whatever, the hope was that they would come in and stay at these patch houses. And then while they were there, maybe they're like... [28:58] There's like a bowl of Sour Patch Kids on the table taking photos of that and whatever. And I remember the one that I went to was in Brooklyn. And like the big story was around how Halsey was there. And they had like a little record, like a little tiny little recording studio that like Halsey like did some stuff in it and was like, cool. Anyway, it didn't work. Yeah. It didn't end up.

[29:21] Yeah. [29:22] But I think of it often as a marketing loss leader that you try to do. In their case, they were trying to [29:29] be cool. And so they did this thing that was like this physical IRL thing. Um, that is haunting. [29:35] That it's kind of similar vibes to the ape house is kind of patch house. I do think it'll be more successful for a pass, but. [29:43] It's not... [29:45] Not dissimilar. Oh my gosh. That makes me like... [29:49] Are you telling that story? What comes up for me is a feeling of... [29:52] Just have I ever had that bad of an idea? [29:54] And thought and had conviction around it. [29:57] Mm-hmm. [29:57] Like, I know that wasn't your idea, so I can say that. But I'm just like, you know what I mean? [30:02] Totally. [30:09] So personal feelings, big personal feeling that's top of mind is we had a DAO [30:17] meeting this week. [30:19] That was hard. [30:21] Some hard truths. [30:24] were shared in that DAO meeting, but it was good. For context for people who don't know, the Boys Club DAO is a collective of people, about 40 people now, that really think a lot about how to steward and add value into the community of Boys Club. And they think about membership and programming. And the DAO does also all of our Boys Club treasury management. So the shared treasury that is...

[30:52] a property of the DAO and they are thinking a lot about that. The DAO came together for VoiceCup very organically, where it was just like a bunch of people who were standing around VoiceCup being like, I want to get involved. I don't know. What can I do? And we're like, let's maybe set up this DAO and have a container for people to like, [31:06] speak into when it comes to boys club and i'd say it's having an existential crisis and [31:13] It's healthy. I invite it. I think it's great. I think it will push it into a new... [31:19] season, but it's definitely going through a moment of change and transformation. And reflection. [31:25] And reflection. Yeah. So yeah. What are your feelings about it? My feelings about it are we got off the call, then we debriefed you and I. And my main feeling is I'm just so grateful for you. [31:36] And your perspective. Oh. I really mean that. And you had such an insightful... [31:42] Take... [31:43] And you were like, you can't force community. [31:46] And there's definitely some actionable things, but I was just like, man, I'm so grateful for Dina's thoughtfulness and, and like, [31:57] You could have a panic around... [32:02] "Wow, things are changing. We're in this really... [32:05] terrible market and you could whip yourself up into a frenzy around it. And I think that meeting was, [32:12] Not there at all, but... [32:14] there was definitely like a low hanging fruit of like, oh, should we all be panicked? And [32:21] I felt like you just...

[32:22] took that out of the air and then everybody was able to like see the problem so much more clearly and so that was my main feeling i was like i'm so glad that i get to do this work with you and like share in the problems together [32:35] So that was my feeling. [32:36] And honestly, it made me feel positive because I was like, we're going to figure it out. [32:40] There's so many talented people in this room, and so many talented people [32:43] working together because they love Boys Club and they want to do good work together. And even in moments where [32:50] all signs are... [32:52] not easy. There's not an obvious path or there's not, you know, a [32:56] crazy market or whatever. [32:58] I was like, okay, we're going to be okay. [33:00] Yeah, I do think we're going to be OK. I think that also there's kind of this subtext that social DAOs don't work. [33:08] It's kind of like a narrative that's starting to be circulated. And so I think that's like kind of in the background. But I mean, honestly, my main feeling is like, [33:17] the more that you can push yourself into moments of having hard conversations with people that you're working with and like get to the other side of them the stronger those relationships and bonds become and yeah the more you can then do together there's trust that's built in those moments and there's [33:33] the resiliency that's built. And I honestly feel that with that group. And I think that [33:37] no matter what happens is incredible as a foundation. So yeah, I agree. Okay. That's that. Dina, where are we going to be in September? We are going to be at Permissionless in Austin, Texas. Permissionless too. It's happening and we're curating the culture track for the conference. So if you're into the stuff we talk about here, you should come and have a good time with us. So email your boss at...

[34:01] Tell them that you need to go and buy your ticket now. They will never be as cheap as they are today. And we also have a promo code in our Discord for Boy Scout members. Come hang in Austin. [34:15] This is where we make an ask. We're in our call to action era. It's CTA times. Rate and review this podcast. Subscribe to our newsletter. And if you're feeling extra generous... [34:28] Send it to one friend. [34:30] Thank you for listening. We love you. Bye.