Ep 156: MALWARE - Grok-2, MetaMask Mastercard, SSN Hack, Waymo cars honking + Mayur Gupta, CMO at Kraken on marketing in crypto

[00:00] - Hi. [00:00] Hey. [00:01] Welcome to Wow... [00:02] Nope. [00:30] The boys club podcast. No, no. [00:33] Just boy stuff. [00:34] The only advice I would say getting into crypto is one, [00:37] If there is one category where marketeers have to be as deep in product [00:42] as product people or as crypto. [00:44] You are not going to be successful in marketing crypto until you're living and breathing and doing it and failing and struggling. [00:51] And I've... [00:52] I pushed myself more so in the last two years and [00:56] then you suddenly have empathy. [00:58] of what the world is going through. [01:00] how while it's come so far, [01:03] how it is still complex, how it is still fragmented. That was a clip from Mayur Gupta, the CMO at Kraken, our very special guest for today's show. Mayur is talking about marketing and crypto at this really interesting moment in time. But first, Natasha and I are going to walk you through some tech news highlights from the week, from a totally unhinged grok to bitchy Waymos. Welcome to Malware. Enjoy the show.

[01:33] Hey, Natasha. So a question we get asked a lot is, what do you look for in a crypto platform? So let's talk about it. Well, Dina, I look for a secure, no fuss platform that I can dive into right away. That's why I love today's sponsor, Kraken. If you're waiting for the right time to get into crypto, Kraken makes it super easy and intuitive to get started. Plus, if you get stuck, they have an award-winning client support team that's available 24-7, along with a bunch of educational guides, articles, and videos to help you along the way. If you're ready to check out [02:02] First story up. [02:24] is [02:25] Grok. [02:26] goes okay crazy grok goes crazy this is what i know i want to tell you what i know because it's very little [02:33] basically nothing and then I got a text from a friend today where I texted her and I said hey are you going to the Uniswap happy hour tonight and she just responds with a picture of AI generated image of Donald Trump [02:46] and Kamala Harris and Kamala is pregnant and [02:49] has like a two-piece where her belly is like like a sexy two-piece where her belly is exposed and trump is like holding it and she's like cradling it and that was my response from my friend on whether she's going to the uniswap happy hour [03:03] *laughs*

[03:03] yeah so anyway there it is I mean that kind of sums up the story honestly so yeah for folks who don't know Grok is [03:12] Elon Musk and Twitter [03:15] X, I suppose... [03:17] is answer to chat GPT. [03:20] It's been around for a while. It's only available to Twitter... [03:25] premium, [03:26] users like Twitter plus or whatever, X plus, [03:29] Which we have as Boys Club. So I was able to play around with it. Which is so fun. Oh, cool. Yeah. And disturbing. So it's their chatbot. [03:36] It's an LLM... [03:37] It's LLM uses real-time information from Twitter. [03:41] Oh, okay. So that's what makes it distinct. So current feeling, compared to a mid-journey or something. Exactly. And this week... [03:49] it launched [03:50] Grok 2. [03:52] its upgrade, which is in beta, but basically [03:55] the big... [03:55] One of the big updates was that it introduced text... [03:59] to [04:00] image generation? [04:02] - Okay. - So type in a prompt. [04:03] you've done it before and there we go there it is images generated barbie taking communion what was the one we made my first aha moment with with ai margot robbie taking communion margot robbie as barbie taking communion exactly and [04:20] And it appears to have no filter and is completely unhinged and is very different from the other image generators in that it's totally willing, happy to use... [04:30] copyrighted images. [04:31] also like pulls in celebrity likeness and stuff. So all the stuff that you're seeing around politicians, celebrities,

[04:41] using drugs, carrying automatic weapons. There's a lot of explicit behavior happening on... In lingerie, sexual things that are happening. Okay. [04:50] There's no... [04:52] RAILS. [04:53] anything goes like [04:55] Truly anything goes to... [04:57] A very disturbing degree. You can imagine. Okay. I can. You can. I can imagine. [05:03] And. Well, I've been seeing it also. I've been like, and I wasn't clocking why. Yeah. And didn't care enough. I was just like, people are being weird on the internet. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. They are being weird on the internet. But I've seen, I've seen it. Yes. Some of it. So. [05:17] The concern is that it's... Let's name the ways. Let's name the concerns. [05:23] many and plentiful concerns, but it's [05:27] especially so close to an election, it's just a misinformation bonanza that's happening. Machine. [05:34] There's the political misinformation stuff, and then there's all the weird sexual stuff that's happening. And then, of course, there's the IP that's... [05:40] being used and like kids IP kids IP that's being put in bad context and stuff like that. I will say [05:47] that [05:48] My take on this is that the images very clearly are AI generated. That's what my... Okay. That was my read as well. I was like, oh, we've been talking about media literacy a little bit and... [05:58] Boys Clip HQ. [05:59] And [06:01] It's obvious. It's obvious. It's obvious. It's totally obvious. Yeah. And you'd have to be like a child. And even a child is more media literate than most of us. So like... [06:10] I think that, yeah, when you...

[06:13] Start to sort of interrogate it. I will say like the deep fake sex stuff feels really bad. And, but it's not as though that can't be generated by Photoshop with someone with the tools and the know how to do that. [06:25] And the ambition and the want and the drive. But I suppose it's just like how easy it is to do. [06:31] Anyone literally could put in the speed of the speed of it. Something else we've been talking about, like the velocity of that type of content, just being able to go out the door is. [06:41] unprecedented and it is [06:43] it is going out as a door. Yeah. All of the ones I've seen have been about Biden or Trump or Kamala. I don't, [06:50] Maybe I'm just like not clocking it otherwise, but they've all been sort of them in weird settings and situations together. Yeah. You didn't see Pikachu holding an automatic... [07:00] weapon i've not seen the gun stuff okay or the pikachu stuff ptl but i'm sure i will now yeah it's always listening so there's been some backlash and people are talking about it as they well should be and it will be really interesting to see how mr edgelord [07:21] will respond to this has he said anything thus yet i haven't seen anything thus yet but i have seen have you been [07:29] tracking all the stuff that's going on with him and his daughter. The custody battle stuff? With... Not the custody battle. His daughter [07:36] that she's basically just like rooting him to filth and and talking about saying he's awful how awful he is and she is trans and he has been talking about her and in just a really horrible way that you would never want to.

[07:52] want or expect a father to talk [07:56] about. [07:57] his child. And [07:59] Anyway, that's all happening kind of. [08:01] in the background. And so a couple of things I saw was like Elon Musk holding a sign that says [08:06] trans rights and stuff like that which okay once it gets to that level that's the type of stuff that will perhaps irritate him enough to maybe do something about he'll be like wait wait he can dish it out but he can't take it i don't like that something must be done yeah so it'll be interesting to see how how it evolves it also in to that note it renders texts [08:28] on things very well. Okay, that's new. And that's new. Yeah, chat GPT. It does render text, but then there's weird other letters that come in and it just [08:35] looks odd. Yeah, remember when someone from the boys club [08:40] core team [08:42] a few years back tried to get Midjourney to create a sign [08:46] in the style of live, laugh, love. [08:49] that just says live laugh ketamine. [08:53] and it couldn't obviously render it. Well, Grok could. Grok definitely could. It was in the boys' club. We had the AI, like... [09:02] I don't even know, like plug in that people would play around with. And it was really fun to watch because like everybody was doing it publicly. And this person was troubleshooting this for some time inside this public. And finally I was like, dude, I don't think it's going to work. [09:15] Cut it out. I think it's time to pack it in. That's so funny. Well, Grok... [09:20] Two definitely could. I put in some here. I,

[09:24] some prompts... [09:26] Zak [09:26] in a brat shirt. [09:28] cool it totally worked here let me oh my god also like he they've made him more handsome they have like they've done some face some face tuning some facial balancing for him a little bit that's so dumb okay hit me with the next one okay kamala in a very mindful very dear they didn't get her [09:49] *clap* [09:49] They didn't capture her. That does not look like her at all. That doesn't look like her at all. [09:54] That's like honestly bad. And then the last one I tried to do was Gwyneth Paltrow vaping. [10:01] But... [10:02] Oh my gosh. Did it work? I couldn't get it to render Gwyneth's face. [10:05] demure her beautiful old money face i couldn't get it to capture it was giving it too much like instagram model face um yeah so okay oh anyway that's where we're at with grok wow i love that also just on the gwyneth paltrow note you know that she's like so public about [10:22] She's just like... [10:23] The one thing I wish that were true in the world is that cigarettes were good for you. She just openly still loves cigarettes, which I'm just like, you know what? I'm going to. [10:30] Go off. I love that about you. I love that about you. Okay, so that's Grok. That's Grok.

[11:00] We have a what's being sold to us as a mass adoption story, but if we really dig into it. [11:06] it's not as many people as he would many such cases many such cases many such cases [11:14] Okay, MetaMask yesterday announced a pilot launch of their self-titled MetaMask card. So essentially it's a debit card that goes directly to your wallet. Okay, physical card? Digital card. [11:27] It's powered by MasterCard and a fintech platform called Banks, B-A-A-N-X, B-A-N-X. [11:34] Do you know? [11:35] No. [11:36] Okay, well, that's what it is. So what's cool about it is it's directly to your self-custody's wallet. [11:41] So you can use it digitally. It goes right to your wallet. There's no sort of intermediaries off-ramping or on-ramping or whatever. And with a lot of the other ones, either it's a wallet that... [11:52] is like a Coinbase wallet that somebody else is [11:54] has custody over or it's like [11:56] there's intermediaries between those transactions. Okay. It's a limited pilot, only a few... [12:01] thousand users select users only in the eu and the united kingdom at the moment you have to hold crypto on the linea network for it to work adam james did a great article summarizing it for the block if people want to check it out we'll add it into the show notes and we'll also add the press release from metamask there's two things that that are interesting to me the press release said metamask mastercard and banks unveils revolutionary way to pay with crypto and then

[12:31] launches world's first [12:33] MasterCard debit card that enables instant spending directly from your self-custody wallet. [12:39] and so they said that but then in the block article there were two notes one was that they're [12:45] is a cl card that allows ledger users to spend their crypto wherever mastercard is accepted so i'm like okay that seems maybe it's not a debit card but it's essentially the same functionality and then the other one is there are debit cards that are connected to centralized [13:02] custodial platforms such as [13:04] Coinbase card or crypto.com Visa card. So it's not exactly right to say it's revolutionary and it's the first of its kind, but... [13:12] when you dig into like the technicalities of it, [13:14] There are some things that are new about it that haven't previously been seen before. And some quotes here. We're building towards this vision of enabling non-custodial neobanking, says Simon Jones, chief commercial officer. He said anybody who has access to a mobile phone should be able to get access to a basic range of financial services by default. This would have huge implications in countries with large numbers of unbanked or underbanked individuals. So. [13:40] That's cool. Two things come to mind. One is... [13:42] I do think that there's something called rain [13:45] Cards. Okay. [13:46] which I think do something very similar. Because I remember we actually set one up. [13:52] which is it pulls funds from a wallet into a digital credit card. [13:55] Okay, what I would guess, based on all the reading that I did about this and what they seem to keep harping, is that...

[14:04] I'm sure that behind the scenes, for the consumer, maybe there's no different, but behind the scenes, there's probably some sort of [14:11] on-ramp, off-ramp that's happening. It's not like a direct [14:15] from your wallet to the transaction. What people are really excited about here is that it's linking Web 2 and Web 3 very directly in a transaction. And that is what people are excited about. I can't wait to send my accountant the list of $45, $3 transactions for him to report each one in my year-end filing for my coffee every day. So... [14:39] - The response from Twitter is positive. People are excited. I don't know, I feel cynical about it because I'm like, people are just trying to pump their own bags. Everybody's like, mass adoption, here we are, it's happening, it's happening. - Yeah. [14:52] It's happening for like 2,000 people in the EU. [14:54] Yeah. Okay. But it's cool. It's cool. And we should be excited about it. But like. [15:00] This isn't. It's not the silver bullet we need. It's not the silver bullet. So that's MasterCard, MetaMask, collab. [15:07] Thanks. Okay, next one, kind of dark here. It's possible that the social security number of every single American [15:19] has been breached. [15:22] In... [15:23] Sane. [15:24] I know. And also maybe people in Canada and the UK too. Well, gang's all here. Yeah, we're all in it together. [15:32] How? How? [15:34] How did this happen? Honestly, in a way that's like,

[15:37] The more you learn about it, the more you're like... [15:39] it's so upsetting it's upsetting so yeah social security numbers full names former and current addresses perfect as well as personal data tied to family members and relatives are possibly included in this great [15:52] Great. [15:53] Anything else? Marital status. Right, right, right, right. So it started in [15:59] April when someone was on a hacking form which I [16:04] I would love to. I would love to. What does that mean? [16:07] I think a form where like hackers can [16:09] - Verge, and they all-- - Like a Reddit forum? Like a forum? [16:13] Yeah, like a form. [16:15] Yeah, like a Reddit or maybe not Reddit because... [16:17] I don't know. I can imagine they're talking about illegal things and I don't know if Reddit, I think probably has some terms of service, but yeah, [16:23] Maybe some more elusive platform. Exactly. And there's a bunch of hackers hanging out. And someone in April mentioned that they got [16:31] a huge gigantabyte of data. [16:34] Okay. That had all this private information in it. And they were trying to sell it at the time. [16:40] I see. For a couple million dollars. And then it sort of came out there that there's this... [16:45] company. [16:46] private company called national public data okay which is a private company that collects and sells access to personal data for use [16:54] in background checks to obtain criminal records and for private investigators. So it's basically like a service that you pay and they have all this information. [17:01] which are like, how do they have all this information? Yeah, that seems... [17:05] it's right it's right and so when you dig into that that's like a it's just a private company it's a private company that has all this data what the fuck i know and

[17:14] when you dig into that, you find that they, yes, are accessing some publicly available information, but they have all this private information that like, it's unclear how they got it. So they maybe bought it from, they maybe bought it. Okay. I don't know. [17:27] but it starts to get really shady. [17:29] And then you're like, how does this exactly your reaction? Like, how is it even possible that this data could be breached from this private company? Right. And then now there's a class action suit against them because of this exact reaction. And we're all just like helpless in it. It's like, okay, great. What are we supposed to do? Pay Experian more money to like monitor? It's just such a racket. That's crazy. Also, like, is my identity going to be stolen? Like, should I be on high alert? Yeah. [17:58] I should. I don't know. I feel so weird when I find these things out because it's like there's nothing... [18:06] to do about it. It's kind of just like, yeah, I guess it's more likely to happen if your data is on some black market. I think maybe just because there's so much of it, it becomes a little less likely. But it's like when politicians release every single email they've ever had as a way for someone to find absolutely nothing because it's just like, OK, never mind. Yeah. I don't know, though. Criminals. I think also like as AI tools, it starts to become easier to like automate some of this [18:33] elicit stuff that you could do to match people and their [18:36] personally, [18:37] identify mobile information and like take action. You know, you can imagine the many ways that people are [18:42] using AI creatively to automate [18:44] workflows and I'm sure you can automate a workflow around identity theft.

[18:49] as well. So yeah, I don't think it's great. I think also for, I mean, [18:54] sensitive [18:55] about people who work in crypto because we get sim swapped all the time so that just becomes [19:00] easier if people know where to look and it's just not good and [19:03] I don't know honestly how [19:05] This could happen. [19:07] you hate to see it you hate to see it you really hate to see it my final story here is a lot lighter and a lot less a lot less implications for anybody i'm so excited to talk about this one i haven't i have not stopped talking about it all week [19:24] I know you love it. Any chance you get, you want to talk about it. Okay. Waymo cars honking at each other. [19:30] I love this headline from a publication. Waymo's driveless cars honk at each other, comma, waking neighbors. Like, it's just, I don't know why, it just makes me laugh. [19:41] So basically, here's what happened. For those of you who do not know, Waymo is the driverless [19:48] Uber, essentially, that primarily runs in San Francisco and I think Phoenix and Los Angeles. They have like three cities where you can take Waymo cars. And what happened is that they rented a parking lot. [20:03] for the non-active Waymo cars to [20:06] Park? [20:07] And in this parking lot, basically what ended up happening is that these cars with nobody in them just started honking at each other. [20:16] And... [20:17] Then the video went viral and then it got picked up in the news cycle and it just like had a whole life of its own all over the internet. And there were so many funny takes. But one of my favorite posts was basically just a video of them honking at each other and Curb Your Enthusiasm-esque music playing in the back. And it was like me experiencing the future, the future of AI at 4 a.m. And it got really bad like in the middle of the night. And it was really funny. Oh my gosh, that's so funny.

[20:47] happened. So this is a statement from the Waymo team. We recently introduced a useful feature to help avoid low speed collisions by honking if other cars get too close while reversing towards us. The company said in a statement, it has been working great in the city, but we did not quite anticipate it would happen so often in our own parking lots. So [21:06] They are going to be making an update to make sure that this doesn't continue to happen. They sure are. I lived above this Waymo parking lot. I would be so pissed. [21:17] I think why I find it so deeply funny is because the act of honking is such a bitchy thing to do. It's so bitchy. It's so bitchy. [21:28] And there's something about that happening between two vehicles that I just, it's so funny. It's so funny. And like two vehicles, like two autonomous entities with like no actual feeling or emotion or anything. Just like bitching at each other. It's just so bitchy. They're bitching. Anyway, thank you. That's a great, that's a great way to end this. Great way to end. [21:51] you [21:52] It's time for a more open, inclusive, and transparent financial system. A system that serves nearly everyone, everywhere, all the time. That's why we love today's sponsor, Kraken. Kraken is a crypto platform that provides a super simple on-ramp to the world of crypto with a 24-7 support team. Crypto transcends physical and imaginary borders. No matter where you are, you can send funds easily and quickly to almost any part of the world. Plus, forget about waiting times and waiting lines. You can send, receive, and trade crypto anywhere near instantly.

[22:22] Okay, now that we've covered some of the tech, we are going to have on Mayor Gupta, CMO at Kraken, [22:50] Enjoy. We have a very special guest, Mayur Gupta, the CMO at Kraken, Kraken fam. As you know, we're huge, huge fans. Mayur, we're really excited to have you on. First of all, welcome to the show. Thanks, Zina. Thanks for having me. Very excited to be here. We felt particularly excited to have you on the show now. It's a really interesting moment in crypto and in particular, I think around the... [23:17] storytelling and marketing around crypto for people who are new and people who have been in the space. The market's been choppy, policy has been inconsistent. We're now going to election cycle where crypto has become a main character. And yeah, just really excited to get your perspective [23:33] from one of the biggest exchanges in the world on how you're thinking about this moment. But before we do want to get a little background on you. What has your career looks like? When did you land at Kraken? [23:44] Yeah. Tell us a little bit about yourself. [23:46] Yeah, well, first, let me start by saying I'm a big fan of what you both are doing and big fan of the content. Was very excited to meet you guys last year. I think we were at one of the events together in Miami. But my thesis in general, I've always grown up with this quote from Einstein that if you can't explain it simply, you don't know it well enough. And I think there is one category that's

[24:08] that needs that belief system, it is crypto. [24:11] And I think you guys are carving that path to simplify the complexity and [24:18] Just make it make it easy for people to understand what a revolution this is and how much value it brings. So thank you for for the partnership. That's so nice. I love to get gassed up right before a pod interview. Thank you. That's really, really kind. To answer your question, Tina, I actually grew up in India, came to the U.S. in 2002. [24:38] Did my major in computer science, so started my career as a pure engineer. No surprises. It was the most common thing to do, I guess, at that time, unless you wanted to go play cricket, which I tried, but there were a billion of us. I just didn't get to play, so the probability wasn't. [24:56] to surprising and did that for the first few years. [25:00] You know, there were two pivots in my career. One was in 2007 when we acquired an ad tech product [25:06] company in Miami. So one of my mentors asked me to be a product lead. So I got from pure engineering and building tech products and solutions to actually building products and marketing and advertising. I did that for a few years, but that was my entry into the world of marketing. So I never studied it. So still kind of a misnomer in many ways. And then the second pivot was after 12 years of doing that on the other side of the fence, being in tech consulting, [25:30] Then went on to run e-commerce for Kimberly Clark. Went on the brand side, which totally changed my perspective. Because on this side, you are actually trained to sell complexity.

[25:39] On the brand side, you are trained to remove complexity to ultimately drive human behavior. And then since then, it's been fascinating. I was a Spotify for a few years, led growth there. And one way or the other, actually got into crypto just around that time in 2017. I wasn't smart enough like a lot of people. And I don't know when you guys got in, but I got out of it in 2019. I belong to that cohort that didn't have the vision or vision. [26:06] enough of a vision to hang in there. Got back in in 2020, and as luck would have it, Jesse and I started talking in late 2021, and finally got in all heads down in early 2022 to join Kraken. And very excited about... [26:23] The mission, very excited and grateful for the opportunity. This is once in a lifetime movement, and anyone who's in it in any form or shape [26:32] five years from now or 10 years from now will be the pioneers of something really magical for the next generation. [26:39] It's so nice to hear you talk about it. And Dino did the same thing. 2017, left 2019. [26:46] Same exact thing. So I get it. I see you. [26:50] I'm like the most grifter of us all. Just 2021 coming in with all the NFTs. I'm like, okay, something's happening here. But no, it's nice to hear about your journey and your background and how it's led you to Kraken. And I think something that is interesting about this podcast week over week is I feel like every week. [27:08] we have a guest on and we say, well, it's so good you're here this week because this week has been so crazy in crypto and there's so much going on and what a week to have somebody on. And this week feels the same, but would love to sort of talk about what you guys are thinking about. You know, you lead a huge marketing team at a major exchange and you guys are thinking about how we talk about these things and onboard new people and attract people in the industry to your exchange. And so I'd love to talk a little bit about what sort of consumer trends you're

[27:38] your objectives and goals? And how does that sort of show up in the day-to-day work? Clacken's been around for 13 years, which speaks a lot, especially in our category, as you all know. But interestingly enough, the growth in our first nine years [27:52] to 10 years happen in the absence of any scale enterprise level marketing. It was all word of mouth and only player being a player that actually gained a lot of trust and credibility within the category, especially with more degenitized traders a lot because of the values that [28:07] Jesse and Thana, co-founders, brought. Before we started working with Kraken, just watching from the sidelines, I think another part of why Kraken had been so successful without even having a marketing team is that there was a consistency. And I think you're speaking to that with the trust, but in an industry that is so lacking in consistency and people continuing to show up and companies continuing to show up year after year, cycle after cycle, I think that that's something that Kraken really set it apart, I would say. Yes. And those are the values that we live [28:37] even at scale now being almost short of 3,000 people around the world. That's the culture. That's the belief system that exists at Kraken, which is super exciting for all of us. But then in the midst of the last bull run, Jesse, who was a CEO back then, he's now obviously the chairman and still our co-founder. He felt that we were now ready for the [28:56] for marketing to drive the next wave of growth over the next 10 years, as our mission continues to drive the global adoption of crypto, [29:04] to inspire and drive financial freedom. So we realized that in this next phase of growth, we now needed a marketing engine.

[29:10] But our ethos, even during the last bull run, [29:14] was never to be the loudest voice. You know, we weren't going out there and trying to cut deals and trying to just ride on the wave. We were still absolutely focused and has been focused on [29:25] driving the education. [29:27] bringing the focus on the substance of crypto or the science or the computer. [29:32] as opposed to the volatility and Chris's book said, the casino or the computer. So I think the world sees obviously the surface, but our focus has been [29:42] What role do we play? [29:44] to drive more awareness for the substance, what this really is. And that's been the basic of marketing for us. [29:52] We really started to scale in 22, build the engine, really started to grow globally last year and this year. It's been more focused on education, but as the markets go strong, we also want to bring creativity in that storytelling. In many ways, on what you try to do with your content creation, we're trying to do the same because [30:10] Yep. [30:10] 2 billion people aren't waiting to be educated all over again. They're done with education. [30:16] This is where you really need to bring [30:18] creative thinking, unique ways, unique analogies [30:22] to tell the world about [30:25] something which is complex, but extremely meaningful and powerful. When you're thinking about this moment that we're in right now and this cycle that we're entering or in the middle of maybe, what are [30:39] You know, we're always looking for a narrative. We're always looking to kind of understand what's happening in our world and put it in some sort of box. And I know it's not that simple. But what what narratives are you thinking are going to define this upcoming cycle or the cycle that we're in? Or what are those like trends that you're looking at to really shape the storytelling that you guys are are doing?

[30:57] Thank you. [30:58] Yes, there's a lot happening in our category, in our world, right? There's not a boring day, let alone a boring month. First of all, ETFs, of course, have been a big moment this year, a big moment for crypto. But for us, that is a very exciting event for two key reasons from a marketing and growth standpoint. One, I think it's a great way for people who are passive to enter the world of crypto. [31:22] because we strongly believe it's a waterfall effect. There's a percentage of those people who are consciously or subconsciously investing through their advisors and funds who will go, perhaps likely to go direct and buy something on their own. A smaller percentage of that audience will say, you know what, we now get it. [31:40] I am actually very excited about the world of DeFi. So they go absolutely self-custody and decentralized. So overall, I think it helps to expand the addressable market for the category. So that's one. And we'll continue to see that as more ETFs around the globe come into play. Two, at the same time, we are seeing a lot of traction on the DeFi world as well, which we are, despite being a centralized exchange, we absolutely believe. [32:03] in that ultimate goal because that is [32:06] That is the ethos of Kraken as well. So we've just recently launched our self-custody wallet. It is an open source wallet cross-chain. I'm very excited about that. But there's a lot more in the pipeline for us because we strongly believe that [32:18] You know, the world of DeFi will continue to expand. The usability will become better. UX will become better. There is still a lot of friction. It's massively fragmented, as I'm sure you all are deep DeGen DeFi players as well. But what role do we play to abstract some of that complexity?

[32:34] and make it easier [32:35] leveraging the legacy of Kraken, which has been security. So we see and believe a lot in that. And then for us, our global remit is huge. You know, Europe's our biggest region. So for marketing this year, we really started to scale our marketing effort now in multiple countries in Europe, which are multilingual. So for us to [32:57] really understand and empathize with [33:00] local nuances, local culture, to be part of culture, to influence that. The rationale for why people come into crypto in Germany could be very different from someone in the US, UK, France, you know, let alone Turkey or South America and so on. So how do we understand that nuance? [33:17] how do we evolve our own engine [33:19] to respond to that nuance. I think that's also super exciting. I know that Kraken recently did a Pulse study, which returned some [33:28] pretty interesting findings on crypto sentiment compared to sort of traditional asset classes. Can you tell us a little bit more about that study and what you guys found? [33:36] Yes, you know, we've been, last kind of two years or so, we've been investing or indexing a lot on really understanding where the audience pulses. And the one thing that was very interesting that stood out for us was for a majority of people, almost all of them, [33:52] the biggest motivator to get into crypto is wealth generation. And then second is they believe that crypto is a long term destination for them. They absolutely see crypto as a future of money. [34:03] but what gets them in

[34:05] is this intent to build wealth in an asset class, which they believe is going to move. [34:11] faster and more strongly than the traditional asset classes. There is no question that this asset class will continue to bring its own volatility. But I think the underlying principle that we are seeing is that and the biggest barrier [34:24] that our research has [34:27] taught us is still a deeper and trusted understanding of the ecosystem. [34:33] And that is where, you know, is helping us shape the role that we have to play. So how did we become the premier platform for wealth building in crypto for the audience? But then how do we become the Sherpa? Yeah, I think that trust issue is an opportunity is really interesting. When I first started in crypto in 2017, I had a startup I was building. Basically, it was a Bitcoin wallet. And the primary issue. [34:56] challenge for that startup was that 2017 I was marketing to a particular demographic, but like there was basically next to no [35:04] awareness of Bitcoin. There was nothing there. And that was hard because it meant that I had to do a lot of educating. But it also was an opportunity because you're able to sort of form into a space that has no [35:20] baggage really along with it. And so fast forward to now, I think that awareness of Bitcoin or other crypto assets is high, if not like saturated to a point of, and this is in the US, might not be globally, but that understanding is there, but there's so much baggage now after we've gone through the past couple of years and...

[35:43] had some really high profile incidents. And so I'm curious how you guys think about that. It's like, on one hand, having the opportunity to shape it, but now it's like everyone knows, but it has [35:55] a bad shape. [35:56] And it's tricky. I can imagine for you guys when you're thinking about it. [35:59] Yes, there are different levels of understanding that exists in that demographic of people who haven't entered crypto yet. Like any other product, any other business, we are focusing on, okay, what is the next step? [36:11] It just sent [36:12] TAM. [36:13] that we believe will come into crypto? And then what is the TAM after that? And so on. So these are these consensory circles of focus areas and priority segments. And we are focused on right now, the people who at least understand investing. We believe that they are the next layer that will fall into crypto or enter crypto when the markets pick up. [36:31] And the conversation with them is around the value proposition. And while there is much deeper awareness of Bitcoin, [36:39] I don't know, there is... [36:40] deeper understanding just yet in all those demographics. For example, not everyone still understands how Bitcoin is different from Ethereum. [36:48] You know, for them, all these are same things. This is all crypto, but they're all playing different roles. They're trying to solve different problems. So one on that end, it is investing in our effort to actually explain in simple ways. [37:02] on how the different components of the scripture ecosystem [37:05] are quite different, solving different problems. So we're investing a lot on long-form content. We have close to 400 different articles. [37:13] And the focus is more and more, can we use new ways to explain very complex topics? So can you use the example of a vending machine?

[37:24] to explain smart contract. [37:26] where a vending machine has a set of inputs and outputs. It doesn't matter who you are, [37:31] It just operates that way. And that's a smart contract as an example. So our focus is one, be very clear about who we are focusing on right now, who is our primary growth segments. What are their barriers? How do we talk to them? So that influences our content. And then two, continue to produce great content and storytelling that will bring them one step closer. And then we go beyond that to the next layer. I'd love to go a little bit back to your career. We have a lot of our listeners are early career or sort of mid-career thinking about a lot [38:01] the trajectory of their career, what it means to work in crypto, what the next five, 10 years is going to look like in this industry. You have had a very successful career. You have worked at some of the best tech companies that are out there. And I'm curious how you have sort of made decisions about where you've gone and where you've worked. And also, as you talk to Talon and recruit and talk to people, like what you're looking for, I think a lot of people are in this moment in their career that feels like a crossroads and would love to sort of just hear from you what your [38:31] I wish I had figured out that path myself and I wish I could claim I made all these conscious choices. I think there was tons of failure on the way and still continue to learn from many of them that I have. [38:44] that I keep committing even now. Honestly, some of it was just being surrounded by great mentors who were a great source of inspiration and always on stage. [38:53] on guidance. So that's been super helpful for me. I feel very fortunate of that. And then, two, I think, Natasha, one point in my career, I think,

[39:02] I can almost break my career into two halves. Half one was working very hard like any other [39:08] young, young person, but no perspective. You know, that was my first half just working hard. [39:14] but had no clue where I was going. And that was fine. It was OK back then. But the second half was where I was working hard, but I finally had a point of view. I had a perspective. And that's been the last 13, 14 years in that journey. And there was a point where I said, you know what? [39:29] I'm not going to worry about whether my point of view is right or wrong, because it doesn't matter. What matters is I have one, that I have a belief system versus having a perspective that aligns with everybody else's around me. So I think that was a pivotal point for me. And since then, I've challenged myself to do something that I'm most fearful of. So getting into crypto was one of those fearful areas for me because I've been an engineer. I spend a lot of time on data and growth for Spotify, which is you learn so much in such a fascinating journey and brand. [39:59] But finance, understanding the basics of finance has been such a weak link through my life. I never studied it. And academia doesn't teach you the concepts of money. [40:08] All right. [40:09] And there is nothing more advanced, there's nothing more revolutionary in finance than crypto. So jumping straight in was a scary thought, but it's been super fascinating because you're constantly learning. And if you think you got it. [40:23] the very next moment you realize, you know, you, you read and you read and you still don't get it. And you absolutely don't.

[40:32] you know, [40:33] become vulnerable and ask someone, just explain to me because I'm just not getting it. So I think that's been pretty fascinating. And I also feel that is what the category needs. I think it needs [40:46] leaders and early advocates and early adopters, [40:49] to now open the gates, to break the guardrails so that the lingo of crypto becomes normal, where somebody can really understand. And there's vulnerability where people can actually, you know, try to learn and so on. So [41:03] The only advice I would say getting into crypto is one, [41:07] If there is one category where marketeers have to be as deep in product as product people, it is crypto. [41:14] You are not going to be successful in marketing crypto until you're living and breathing and doing it and failing and struggling. I pushed myself more so in the last two years and [41:24] then you suddenly have empathy. [41:26] of what the world is going through. [41:28] how while it's come so far, [41:31] how it is still complex, how it is still fragmented. [41:35] When your wallet gets hacked, you have a whole different level [41:39] of understanding empathy and appreciation for, in my case, I have so much appreciation for the value that Kraken brings on security. [41:47] when I got hacked for the first time and almost fainted. Oh, no. I could go through the night because you don't feel it until you get punched in the face. You can use that theory, right? Until you finally go through it. So the only thing I would say is the way to really enjoy and run this is, one, get on the deep side of crypto, get your hands in, because that's the only way we will tell stories. And two is just focus on the substance. We will never tame the volatility, and crypto should not be about that. It's okay for some people.

[42:17] Thank you. [42:18] But I think the movement and the revolution will only be successful [42:21] when we all do our part to bring that focus into the substance. Yeah, I love that. And I also love what you said about having your own perspective and having your own opinion and not caring if other people think it's right or not. Something that we've been saying a lot at Boys Club is other people's opinion of me is none of my business. And I think that's really been like, honestly, it's comforting in a way to be like, I have my set of values and beliefs and I'm going to stick that course, stay that course, despite like what, you know, inputs I'm getting from other people. [42:51] So anyway, I just find that really inspiring. And I think is true for us as well. - Piggybacking on that, I think I missed one part on Natasha's question, which I do wanna share. [43:00] on exactly like you said, Tina, about your values and your beliefs. [43:04] We actually applied that at Kraken, which is your question on anyone interested in exploring and joining Kraken, what we look at. [43:11] I think above all, we look at your belief and your set of values and how connected you are with the values of crypto. [43:19] Because I think everything else, the skill sets, your functional areas, your depth, [43:24] you know, we can keep honing on. [43:27] but your values and belief system into what crypto stands for, [43:33] You can't fake it. I think so many people are... [43:35] drawn to this industry for what it means for the world and what the potential change it can have, not only just here in the US, but globally and what it can mean for people all around the world. And I think that especially at Boys Club, that has been what has been the most fun is you meet people who are in Boys Club and there's this immediate impact.

[43:53] sort of muscle memory with each other about the things that you care about and the things that you want to see in the world. And I think that can be true for a lot of crypto. And it's really nice to hear that that's the way that you guys see it as you're thinking about growing your teams and hiring. And thank you so much for coming on and sharing how you guys are approaching this work and what it means for the industry. It's just been really nice to hear. [44:14] No, likewise. Look, I was having FOMO. I know Liz has been with you guys on the panel and Matt and of course, Noah and others. So I have real FOMO. So I'm so glad that you told me I'm finally going to be talking to you guys. I'm like, yes, let's do it. It was an absolute no brainer. [44:32] Great. Great. Hopefully the first of many. I hope so. Thanks so much. [44:36] Great. Thank you. Have a good one. [44:38] *music*