Ep. 75: "The Ethereum Foundation needs a Creative Director" with Reggie James, co-founder of Eternal

[00:02] Welcome to Boys Club Interviews. This is a show where we bring on people much smarter than us to talk about the new internet. I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. No. Just Boys Club. [00:20] Hi. Hey. We're in person. [00:22] Which is always so fun. [00:24] So fun. [00:25] We had a really great [00:26] podcast this week. Reggie James. [00:28] We... [00:30] Caught his talk at FWB Fest and... [00:33] Just were total fangirls from that point on. [00:36] Incredible talk. And we... [00:38] took the opportunity in this interview to have him [00:41] Talk more about that talk. So for the listener, we dug into what his talk was about, which is essentially that crypto is irrelevant and that that's a beautiful thing. [00:52] And that there's a redemptive arc that happens when... [00:56] there's a period of irrelevancy. And we talked about that. We talked about Ethereum needing a creative director. [01:02] And a lot of just other really insightful, very philosophical ideas about this industry. [01:08] So give it a listen.

[01:38] slash boys club. Sign up in just a few minutes and you can even get started with as little as $10. We love you, Kraken. [01:45] On today's show, we have Reggie James. Reggie is a writer, product architect, DJ, and co-founder of Eternal. [01:54] Eternal is a new media company building a 3D radio platform and ongoing programming. Reggie is from New York, but grew up in the Poconos and recently... [02:04] brought down the house at FWB Fest with a talk called Embracing Irrelevancy for Progress, which we're going to unpack. Reggie, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. [02:14] Very special moment. We're so happy to have you. Some context for us showing up to your talk. You had a slot that was-- [02:24] Maybe some would say tough. Others would say very sought after. But 10 a.m., which, you know, at Fest is questionable for some. [02:33] For the type A ladies of Boys Club, we had gone on a four mile run and just right into your talk. We like literally ran into your talk and we were like, this is the best way to start the morning. And it was a spiritual experience for all of us. Just loved it. So we want to dive in, hear from you and for the listener. Could you give us a bit of a TLDR on what you talked about at FWB Fest? [03:02] For sure. Yeah. I mean, so like the title of the talk was Embracing Irrelevancy for Progress. Right. And I think that when I was constructing it,

[03:12] I was really thinking about the hero's journey, and that kind of slid its way into more the like redemption arc, redemptive journey. And. [03:22] It's funny because at first it was meant to be a lot more humorous. And then I think I just got significantly more serious while constructing it. But, you know, the real TLDR is just that crypto has... [03:34] lost the center stage of what is new happening in tech that like both media and consumers and let's just say the market cares for, right? Crypto companies are having trouble raising, crypto funds are having trouble raising. [03:49] Some are kind of on zombie mode, like they haven't announced that they're closing, but they'll definitely close. [03:55] As that happens, as price retracts, you know, [03:59] What can we... [04:00] collectively sit back, reflect on [04:04] so that we can emerge new. And I think what's been so interesting since the talk are some of the products that have been released that I think I have like a visceral reaction towards. - You touched on a few things that we're definitely gonna unpack there. One of the things that I really loved about your talk [04:21] You're starting off fresh 10 a.m. And pretty much one of the first slides that you pull up is this thing. It's a big slide, just text that says crypto is irrelevant to a room full of presumably crypto people, myself included. And it was in that moment that I was like, I know I made the right decision this morning to come to this talk. That was really, really cool. You followed it up with this idea about how relevancy is a constant posing and is performative.

[04:51] And really I think kind of your thesis through the whole thing is around how [04:55] you need the irrelevant moments to make meaningful [04:59] progress and that it's in fact like really crucial to make progress and to level up to whatever your next phase is. You used a really great example in Steve Jobs and sort of outlining his irrelevancy arc. Can you share that here for listeners? Yeah, for sure. So, you know, [05:17] The internet's kind of like this always on giant camera, right? And I think camera creates a pose. And what's interesting for like the Steve irrelevancy arc is that it's pre-internet, right? And so traditional media and like PR is kind of at the center of relevancy or one of the centers of relevancy during that time. Steve's irrelevancy arc starts as a function of the Mac failing, right? Which I think there's kind of a classic Steve distortion field and us understanding Apple products today. [05:47] The original Mac 1984, what have you, that's a failure. He gets booted off the team. [05:52] Apple sinks a lot of money into it and it doesn't work. He gets exiled, right? [05:57] And his idea of a redemption plan is... [06:00] next, right? Which is the famous black cube, the logo that gets referenced all the time. And in my favorite book, Becoming Steve Jobs, it talks about just how many lessons he learns here. He learns really how to be a manager, or at least he's like really trying to, right? He's still quite temperamental. And there's this story that I actually tease some of the folks around here with,

[06:30] of the operating system. And he's like, "Hey, look at this prototype." And Steve just rips them a new one because it's just not ready to show him. It's not ready for that level of critique. And so, you know, he still kind of has these temperamental behavior that is kind of known to his character. But in short, what happens is like the black cube fails. [06:49] Right. It's like too, it's too expensive. It's like end to end only with other next tubes. And so it fails, but out of it, they find this object oriented framework, which becomes next OS, which is what Apple buys back. Right. And that was really a product of Abitavanian. [07:08] I don't know how much credit Steve can take, but what it does do, it creates that wedge for Steve to re-enter Apple. And he takes all the lessons from Next. He looks at all the shit that Apple had been building, the new end and all this crap. And he cuts like 80 plus percent of the product line. And they're left with four products in like four distinct categories. And that's what really kind of resets the... [07:32] relevancy arc for him. But, you know, he was in that irrelevancy moment for, let's say, like 86 to 90, [07:42] four. [07:43] Like he is there, he's there for a while. And the only relevant thing he does is uses some of his money as a function of like, you know, the Apple severance to buy Pixar to be acting as president. And he learns a lot of values from Pixar as well that he brings to Apple.

[08:02] so forgotten in the lore of Steve Jobs having this prolonged moment of [08:09] Nobody really [08:10] thinking of him as the hero that he is today. I think what's sort of baked into [08:15] You looking at these redemptive arcs and how people have these moments and then turn into the next version of what they're doing or come back into relevancy more broadly is this idea that when you're in these moments of quiet and you're not posing, you're not public, that you're building something and you're learning something in those moments that is worthy of attention later down the line. [08:40] And my fear with crypto is that we're in an irrelevant moment and then we're going to come back to some sort of relevancy with a lot of products that aren't worthy of the spotlight. And... [08:53] Name and shame, Natasha. Name and shame. I'm getting there. I'm building my thesis around this. Let her cook. Let her cook. [09:03] So friend.tech, to name names, is having a moment. It's, you know... [09:10] exploding on the internet and at least our like tiny corner of the internet that we're all in and i'm curious what you think about it and for me personally i hope that's not [09:21] what this is all about. And... [09:25] I hope that there's a lot more here, but I'm curious what your take is and how you're able to [09:31] identify when there's

[09:33] the arc, the redemptive moment is happening. And when there's just like some noise that's sort of cluttering this moment where we should be much more focused on building something meaningful. [09:42] Sure. Yeah. I think like holding nothing back, like I really hate friends.tech. [09:48] it stands against like so many of my values it's like deeply financializing the individual [09:56] it creates extremely odd problems. [09:59] social dynamics with my peers. I'm not on it. [10:03] I just keep looking at it because I refuse. I also, it kind of reminds me of like almost like a technical body horror. I think I just kind of have a very visceral reaction to the idea of like my body or identity being for sale for many obvious reasons. I don't really make a lot of things about like race or gender, but I'm just like, if I [10:24] as a black person, or if I were a woman, I would just kind of look at the core mechanics of the thing and be like, I don't really need that in my mix of product life, you know? And it just kind of feels like one of those very classic examples of what if we could trade our friends? Like what if our friends were the stock market? Holding my talk right alongside of it, I think I just can't take it [10:49] Seriously, guys. [10:52] Do you think that's part of what brings... [10:54] You out of irrelevancy is this utility, like real, like not like crypto NFT PFP utility, but genuine utility. I think the PFP had genuine utility for what it's worth.

[11:06] I think like that sense of identity play and construction was fun. Cool. I love that take. That's surprising. It's kind of like my take that Clubhouse prevented like a lot of suicides in tech. [11:18] Because I think these... [11:20] complete tragedy of [11:23] COVID and isolation, Clubhouse, I think, was worth its valuation. That's like my hot take. Like Clubhouse was worth its valuation because of how many lives I generally believe it saved. And I think in a similar way, like [11:35] Similar to maybe how Second Life had a lot of usefulness in its identity exploration for folks, particularly in different marginalized communities. PFP projects, despite the price and hype cycle, allowed people some sense of identity play that maybe never felt that identity play was for them. And I think that that's a really interesting point. [11:58] side effect of what happens when you take on a [12:01] non-representative form of self, right? Which I used to write a lot about back in the day. I think to your question of like, what brings us out of irrelevancy is like some set of [12:12] utility. I think utility is such a hard word because what might be useful to me might not be useful to someone else. I think there are some core premises of financialization that crypto kind of preached, the unbanked, what have you. I'd be curious to know who's really doing that work. I feel like that work has been so drowned out by some of the narratives of [12:33] PFPs or DAOs. The thing that's going to bring us out is like a really agreed upon set of values. I think people really underestimate how hard that is, one, but how useful that is, right? Because when you have an agreed upon set of values,

[12:48] Things like friend.tech, [12:50] can't suck up the narrative air because it's just inherently misaligned. And it creates a really great filtering system for [13:01] how ideas are supposed to flow, right? And so then this comes into like this Naoto Fukuzawa sensibility of embodiment. And Naoto Fukuzawa is like a really dope industrial designer, was head of industrial design at Muji for quite a long time. [13:15] you know, Apple heads reference him like crazy. But yeah, once you set these new values, you're able to reach this sense of embodiment with the products that you are producing, right? And just tighten the scope a little bit. But it also makes it legible from those not in the culture, right? And like, to your point, it's like, yeah, friend.tech is like, blowing up, but it's blowing up within such a hyper financialized niche of people that can bridge it to this thing. [13:45] to a wider audience. And I think you're right. And I really agree that that feels like a crucial ingredient that's needed for whatever is next. You're talking a lot about values and you did touch a lot on values in your talk. And you had a viral moment, I'd say recently with your tweet, Ethereum Foundation needs a creative director. Let's say you're the creative director and you get to [14:07] shape what those values are in some way. Where would you plant your flag? For a lot of people, they're like, the technology is neutral, right? That's like kind of a line that you hear in tech circles and that it's how we all or what we all decide to build on top of it that,

[14:22] shapes the values of it. On another hand, that a lot of people would be like, okay, well, the values of crypto are pretty clear. It's about decentralization. It's about this idea of freedom from... [14:35] authority, it's touches of libertarianism in some ways in some circles. Yeah, I so I totally agree with you. There's, um, I think Kevin Kelly writes about like, when we expand technology, like we expand it inherently in like both directions, right? We can expand it into like, further into the profane further into the sacred. And it's funny, like, I [14:55] I remember in some of my early journals, I was writing how like crypto is like both the purest sense of capitalism, but also the thing that can like overturn capitalism. Right. I think that's just so unique in a medium. I've been having a bit of angst because I feel like I've been getting copied more and more without attribution. But Ethereum Foundation creative director, the two things that [15:16] keep coming back to me is like this sense of programmed coordination. [15:21] Right. [15:22] and how that relates to [15:26] distributing value. [15:29] without some of the formal wrappers that we use today. I think it's a really new wrapper on coordination and value [15:37] both accrual and distribution. What's funny about that is like, I don't really think those are values as much as they are traits. 'Cause I think friends.tech falls into that sense of coordination and like value distribution. It comes back to this idea from the talk, which is just like, what is the image?

[15:54] right because the image is going to kind of set that tone and reference point for the disseminating of like those two traits and i think that's where like the really hard work is right and if you go to like a lot of the images used around this very libertarian ethos of like freedom has to do with the collapse of some other system and i think that's a really dead end for our images whereas [16:24] lean to me. It's people coming together around like some shared object, the like win state of attaining that object and then doing something else. Right. And like, I'm part of the US Open like tennis squad. And like, I would never be able to get a box at the US Open, but like being able to come together as a group. Did they do that on party? Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. So like a box is some cost. I don't know. To get a seat within the box was like 0.5 ETH, [16:54] back. [16:54] Crazy, crazy, crazy. And yeah, it was just an open party. You could get as many like shares of that party as you wanted. I got to for me and my partner. That was that right. And like, it just was about one person coordinating it. And this is where crypto wins, right? If we were trying to do that shit over Venmo. [17:10] That's not happening. Right. Someone's going to be late. Oh, I bought eight tickets for friends to go to the US Open and it was. [17:18] Painful. Yeah, you're still waiting on those. So I'm like, okay, I could have just gone to this party bid and got my tickets and called it a day. 100%. Right. And so like that level of coordination and that image, right? Like the image there is the coordination that we're coming together around 20 people. And then those 20 people having like a really wonderful experience in the real world. Those images are so much more compelling. And that's like a really minor one,

[17:48] to me right now. [17:49] That's kind of where I would start as a creative director for ETH. [17:53] And there are cool projects like that. Like, I think FWB Fest is a really great image. And I think something I walked away from was like, [18:00] damn, maybe like the best thing crypto could do is just create a thousand of these. [18:06] Like that would not be a bad future to live in if it was just like a thousand FWBs. [18:10] that worked really well, was able to create some sort of social density, [18:15] I wouldn't be upset about that. One of the things that you said was if the values are coordination and distribution, basically, or that being sort of a stack or a tool set of Ethereum. But then it's tough because then we have friend.tech and that sort of falls under that. But I think where it breaks down is they're in the distribution of it. It's like a pyramid of distribution, which is what we already have, where it's like there's some winners and there's then a lot of losers. [18:45] that's hard to convey in a conversation around distribution and i think it's really hard in [18:50] doing this work, even at Boys Club, equal distribution to everybody who's participating usually doesn't work because you have certain levels of work that people are doing or engagement. And so to have it be like a socialist, totally equitable, everybody gets the same amount sort of utopian future. [19:08] I know that that's not exactly possible, but I do think there's something to [19:13] if we're doing a little bit of flattening, [19:15] of that distribution then we're probably moving in the right direction anyways for you you don't really seem like you're here for the price action and like making cash maybe but it seems like you're here for some other reasons i'm genuinely curious like what brought you into the space what

[19:32] draws you to do this work. And I started reading like white papers. I felt [19:37] a [19:38] deep genuineness, [19:40] in the white papers of like why this thing came into existence. Right. And I think that was the first thing that like touched me. I was like, Oh, there's like, [19:47] a real earnestness here. [19:49] into [19:50] the need for this thing. And I was just thinking about like economic opportunity and like production on chain and like not skirting around that. But then we started seeing more quickly than people want to admit, just questions of like, why are we paying artists royalties? And I remember when that conversation boiled up on Twitter and I was like, oh, y'all have lost the plot. Like the royalties was the entire point of this thing, you know, and the way that people were trying to skirt around it and just like making a big hubbub because they were losing 5% of their retail, [20:20] resale transactions. And I was just like, [20:22] Oh. [20:24] people are going to lose the plot here really quickly. And, you know, sure enough, they did. And yeah, there was kind of a, yeah, you know, if one of the main means is being a degenerate around like these financial tools, then, you know, you're going to get [20:37] degenerate markets and degenerate feelings and language creates expectation. You can't [20:42] reinforce a language of like degeneracy and like aping in and blah, blah, blah, and then not think there's going to [20:49] not be paying on the other side of that. I think what draws me to the space right now is that I genuinely see a lot of promise in the tech. I see how many really smart, creative, earnest people [21:00] also care about it. [21:02] And to me, that's always like a sign that

[21:04] there is something beautiful on the other side of this. And so I think, like, why I'm attracted to it right now is both, like, [21:11] personal pains of like tech products that I've [21:14] seen and felt like [21:16] my favorite YouTube video getting taken off of, you know, YouTube. [21:19] Thankfully, a friend had to download it and I have it on my USB now. [21:23] Shout out USB Club. That's going to happen more and more with tech. And even the Elon is talking about like deleting tweets. [21:29] There's a permanence value that I really like about on-chain things. So my job right now [21:35] is that of almost a [21:38] preacher. [21:39] It's very turn away from your sins, [21:42] Seek the new path. That probably comes directly from my dad. [21:47] Well, we're receiving the gospel, Reggie. So what you're putting down, we're picking up. Okay, I want to expand on this idea of language creates expectation. [21:55] You came out with what I felt was a little bit of a swing during your talk around [22:01] this idea of a rejection of the point of view that community-based narratives saying, [22:06] that people all have their own agendas and community-based narratives are flawed and that they don't recognize and anticipate for that. And for the record... [22:14] totally agree. And one of the ways that we've approached building Boys Club has been in that way for those reasons. But we often feel at odds with the Web3 way, which is about [22:26] decentralization and all these other beautiful things, which we also really love that we can hold both things as true at the same time. But I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about that thought because it really was striking for me in the moment. Yeah, I felt like it was one of the like sleeper cell points that I think some people picked up and some people were just like,

[22:44] Oh, he probably misspoke. [22:47] Yeah, I wrote this essay like... [22:50] damn, maybe like three years ago now. [22:53] called Cybernetic Drives Towards Referential Objects. And the real point there is that we always... [23:00] need a referential object to gear our actions around so that there is some feedback loop to whether we're doing a thing right or not. [23:10] And just to continue on like Christianity because it's just – [23:13] central to a lot of things I think about, but it's like, [23:17] There's the cross. [23:18] The cross has a message, right? You are a sinner in need of a savior. [23:22] You sin. [23:23] The cross redeems you. You sin again, the cross redeems you. And you're going to continue on that cycle, ideally getting better until you die and go to heaven, right? My dad is going to be so pleased that you shared the gospel on my podcast. He's going to be like, that ready guy, he really gets it. Yeah, he's a good one. Exactly. So then, right, so we have that central message, right? And [23:48] churches of all sects and differing beliefs have a decentralized messaging around that core message. But if that core message changes, [23:58] right? If Jesus did not die on the cross for your sins, [24:02] you're no longer Christian. [24:03] Right. Like that. That's like the defining thing. Right. So. [24:08] That's why you need a referential object. The problem with pure community-based narratives [24:13] If it's lacking a central referential object that defines what that community is, that community will disperse into the worst part of decentralization, which is simply...

[24:24] a bunch of individuals standing around with all different objectives. [24:28] Right. So the idea of what is the image, right? Like McLuhan talks about the crosses like that is message and medium all in one. [24:37] The cross is the message and the media. So like Ethereum really needs to think about like, [24:42] What is... [24:43] The message and the medium all wrapped in one. [24:46] what is the singular thing? Because once you do that really, really well, then everyone can point and orient around the thing, and companies will mean [24:56] something for a really long period of time. And then you push that down the stack into individual orgs, right? This is why anything has a mission statement. Eventually, Facebook's was like, connect the whole world. So now every action, does it help connect the whole world? Yes or no? [25:11] No, we're not doing it. Yes, we're doing it. I think a lot of things suffer from this wideness of not having the centralized message. [25:20] And because of that, it gets grifted upon endlessly. What is the core message of open AI? [25:26] Right now, I have actually no idea. I know that they're trying to advance AI models and build different products. Right. But and because of that, [25:33] One, a bunch of rappers around OpenAI popped up. And every other tweet is, if you're not using this new product that has seven users, you're falling behind. Same thing with crypto, right? It's like, what's the current one around like bald? It's like, Jesus Christ, I can't believe I got these tokens. That's what happens, right? Because there's no message around that token. There's no point of that token. They're trying to extract value immediately by some sucker falling into it.

[26:03] little one step above that to understand you shouldn't touch that link. [26:07] with a [26:07] 50 foot pole. But I think that even when you look at something like a friend tech, right, just to stay on this example, is just like, outside of what I can see, which is the financialization of my identity, I have no idea. [26:21] what the [26:22] central message is there. [26:23] other than the fact that I am the medium that is getting traded. And I'm not really interested in that. And so, yeah, like the community based narrative thing really falls apart when there isn't a referential object. And oftentimes there's a really small group of people that accept that. [26:37] It's very rare that 50 people come together and set like one thing, right? What you end up with is like five pillars. [26:44] And then everyone's running around with what pillar they think is really important. I think this is something that the white papers kind of fail at because it's system design. And there's a lot of things that it's trying to promote. I think if we can create an image that synthesizes what it's trying to promote, [26:58] and get to like that really beautiful [27:01] line [27:02] think we'd see a lot of [27:04] needed change in a lot of [27:05] A lot of frustration as well, right? Because people don't want to be told that they're off. [27:09] message that's one of the beautiful things of having no message no one can be off message and one of the hardest things to do with in life is when someone you're in relationship with is telling you that you're off message whether it's your boss whether it's your romantic partner whether it's a friend like when you're off [27:24] Sync. [27:25] No one wants to be told that. And a lot of people have to be told that. Yeah. That's why people don't like to go to confession because they don't want to repent. [27:32] Well, I feel like I've attended church, so I feel great about it. I feel redeemed in this conversation. One of the things that I think the meaning and message of Ethereum or crypto has been is about money. When you hear crypto, that's what you think. There's the technology and it's money. And that's the meaning and the message that has been widespread throughout the zeitgeist.

[27:57] I think a really shallow expression of what all of this amazing technology and community and people is what it's really about. But I don't have the language to... [28:09] retort in a way where I'm like, no, it's this. That's crisp. And to the point, it's always like, well, it's about like us all coming together and doing cool stuff online. What you're saying really speaks to that. [28:20] crypto and money being so synonymous, but crypto also being like the medium of all of these on-chain things creates like this, [28:28] I just tried to do a really quick mental exercise of like how it explained any on-chain crypto Web3 project without using the word crypto. Because eventually it's going to come up. And the minute it comes up. [28:40] the association is built, right? You know, either way, either way it gets tacked onto the sentence, it's going to shape the whole thing, you know? And I think one really fun exercise would be like, can you make something like super on-chain, super web 3D? [28:53] without having to use [28:55] any of that language. [28:57] I think the person that pulls that off, [29:00] whether it's like through account abstraction or wallet abstraction, whatever technical term you need to get to get it there. I think whoever pulls off is going to sit in a whole new territory that a lot of people will be able to latch on to. [29:13] When I think of, you know, Boys Club, I think... [29:16] social, I think media, I think editorial, I think [29:20] you know, creative. [29:21] I think ladies and it's like all that has nothing to do with crypto. But the minute it's like, well, how do I access it?

[29:29] How do I get the thing? [29:31] you don't need it but then immediately it's like okay but it is like this thing you do need this thing let me give you this app let me show this thing real quick and then and then the funny thing about interoperability is just like oh and since you're already inside let me give you all this like that's it just becomes so overwhelming reggie amen thank you so much this is such a wonderful [30:01] - Thank you. [30:01] I'm a huge fan of the office. Kraken is a crypto OG. They have more than 10 million clients around the world that trust them with their crypto needs. They're one of the largest crypto platforms out there with some of the highest security standards in the industry. So you can rest easy that your funds and your privacy are safe for the keeping. And if you need help along the way, as we all do sometimes, Kraken's award-winning client support team is available 24-7 every day of the year. This is a true story. [30:31] questions about our account and they were so nice and so patient. It just takes a few minutes to get started today at kraken.com backslash boys club. [30:39] Time for some draft tweets. [30:41] Draft Tweets is a segment on our show where we go into our Twitter drafts. [30:47] and read out our unsent tweets. [30:49] They're usually unsent for a myriad of reasons. A good reason. Okay. I have one this week. [30:56] I have... [30:57] Written and rewritten this one several times. Okay. And it hasn't quite.

[31:01] worked out. So I, [31:03] what better [31:04] place to [31:06] Talk about it then here. It's let's workshop it. We're in the lab. Okay. [31:11] Our intern, Stephanie. [31:12] showed up to a weekly meeting while she was in Vegas at 6 a.m. [31:16] She was in a hotel hallway taking the call because her girlfriends were sleeping. She's a real one. So I've rewritten this a few times to try because there's many components to the story. You're missing a key one. [31:29] Which is what? [31:30] That she got back an hour before. She rolled right into the meeting. [31:34] Like her, her evening, her, [31:36] And her mourning were one. [31:38] And that's what's so incredible about it. Because we were like, what are you doing here? Like, you don't need to be here. Like, it's not that important. It's not that serious. It's not that serious. And she was like, no, no, it's all good. You know, like, we got back about an hour ago. And I was like, oh, she's rolling right into this meeting, which is hilarious. It's amazing. So I've tried to... [31:57] I really want to get this tweet out because I think it needs work. It needs work. [32:01] Yes, you're right. We need to set the context for her... [32:05] rolling in. Also, there's important context, which is that she... [32:08] was like totally present and happy to be there. Yeah. She wasn't like fucked up. She wasn't. Well, she might've been fucked up, but she wasn't like, [32:17] visibly bombed out. Joyous. She showed up bright. [32:22] bright-eyed and bushy-tailed and was ready to [32:24] Party. [32:25] research some venues in Miami like I that's she was totally cogent totally cogent but she didn't seem fucked up at all I don't want her to fucked up no she didn't seem fucked up yeah okay um but yeah shout out to Stephanie she she's so she's the real she's she's so real she's been our intern for two years now and she's still in college somehow every time I'm like when are you graduating so if you're looking for just one of the most committed people in the business I think she'll be looking

[32:55] actually. She's going to be looking for a job soon. [32:57] She's going to be coming to permissionless. If you're looking for the most committed employee, I mean... [33:02] I want to hire her. So I don't want to shill her too much. But she's, Stephanie's incredible. And yeah, she didn't tell us she was going to Vegas for the weekend with her girlies. No. [33:13] And she could have texted and said, hey, I can't make this. Sorry. Yeah, I can't make it. We would have been like totally fine. Have a great time. Vegas is the best. I would have been so supportive. Totally. But no, she just shows up and we're like, why are you in this weird. [33:25] I have this weird background. And she's like, oh, I'm in a... [33:28] I'm in the hallway. My friends are sleeping at a hotel. So anyway, shout out to Stephanie. Shout out to Stephanie. Bye. [33:35] Dina, where are we going to be in September? We are going to be at Permissionless in Austin, Texas. Permissionless too. It's happening. And we're curating the culture track for the conference. So if you're into the stuff we talk about here... [33:48] You should come and have a good time with us. So email your boss. [33:51] Tell them that you need to go and buy your ticket now. They will never be as cheap as they are today. And we also have a promo code in our Discord for Boys Club members. Come hang in Austin. [34:05] This is where we make an ask. We're in our call to action era. It's CTA times. Rate and review this podcast. Subscribe to our newsletter. And if you're feeling extra generous... [34:18] Send it to one friend. [34:20] Thank you for listening. We love you. Bye.