Context: Co-founders of The Creepz on Building a Successful Web3 Brand & the Unique Upsides of Web3 IP

[00:00] Welcome to Season 1, Episode 4 of Context, Views on Crypto and Culture, presented by Boys Club. [00:06] With me, your host, Blake Finucane. [00:09] Today, I am absolutely honored to have on Joe and Dom, who are the co-founders of the Creeps and Overlord NFT ecosystem, one of the most successful NFT projects ever in terms of volume and revenue generation. [00:23] Justin Bieber is also reportedly a fan. So in terms of success, in terms of influence, it is really at the top of the list. [00:31] Thank you. [00:31] I was introduced to them by my good friend, Ton, early last year, and now I count them as friends and inspirations. They're lovely people, and what they've built in such a short period of time is astonishing. [00:44] They're brilliant product builders. And I think there is tremendous value in our conversation today, learning about how they've achieved such great success in such a short period of time. [00:54] And we talk about really what it means to build a Web3 brand and the specific opportunities this facilitates around amplified growth, new verticals around community participation, and the specific opportunities this facilitates around amplified growth. [01:05] We also talk about the specificity of Web3 IP and the unique upsides that it presents. [01:11] We dive into NFTs in relation to fashion, to media, to gaming, and how running an NFT project is really like running a public company. [01:19] There are so many gems in here. I learned so much. I think you will too. [01:24] I can't wait for you to listen. So let's jump in.

[01:35] I am so excited and super honored to have on today Dominic Smith and Joe Carnell, co-founders, leaders, and visionaries of the Overlord Creeps Universe. [01:45] Boys Club listeners today are in for a real treat as we'll actually get to learn about the influence, success, and incredible execution that Joe and Dom have created with this project. [01:55] Creeps covers fashion, gaming, and animated series. It's an NFT project to me that has actually really grown into and continues to expand into a multimedia, multifaceted brand. [02:07] which really I think fits with a lot of the things that our listeners and also me are genuinely passionate about. [02:14] And the Creeps brand and project is really in reference to and in dialogue with streetwear, luxury fashion. It's very current. It's on the pulse, but it's also very fun, irreverent. So I think it's a perfect fit for context. [02:28] Um, [02:29] And just to really add some names and numbers for our listeners, because I know that Joe and Dom are quite modest. [02:36] It is really one of the most successful NFT projects on the market today. On OpenSea alone, the Genesis Creeps NFT collection, in a little over 12 months, has done over 32,000 ETH in volume, which is over $50 million in today's Ether prices. [02:54] And some of their notable holders and collectors over the year include some of Boys Club's favorite sons, Brooklyn Beckham, Jaden Smith, [03:03] And with these names and numbers, I think really reflect how they've captured the attention of super influential celebrities, big whale investors.

[03:12] but also the general NFT fan, and have been able to bring people into Web3 that wouldn't have actually otherwise entered the space. [03:20] So to draw in and sustain this type of attention and interest, [03:25] To be continually building in an ecosystem of this magnitude is so incredibly hard to do. There is so much for our listeners to learn and me to learn from both of you. You're a real success story, and I think you've done it and continue to do it actually on your own terms. [03:41] And you've always also been super kind and very gracious to me, which means a lot. I'm generally a fan of the project. I'm a personal holder of the project. [03:50] So thank you both so much for being here today. Thank you. Amazing. Well, thanks for having us. This is honestly, this is so exciting. I, you know, our journey. [04:00] of building the brand has really just begun. And we're so grateful to have met so many incredibly smart and kind and supportive people along that way. And we count you as one of the closest friends of Dom and I and the ecosystem as well. So we're really grateful to be here. I think when you let us know that you were starting a podcast, not only were we so excited to be listeners, but when you extended the invitation to come and join you, this has had to be one of the [04:30] the brand, who do we want to share our stories with? And I'm excited to talk about it today. So thanks for having us. Amazing. That means a lot to me. So I wanted to begin. Of course, I've done a little bit of an overview in terms of, I guess, the big kind of punchy numbers. But for those who don't know, and the listeners who are unfamiliar with

[04:51] the creeps overlord ecosystem, I'd love for you to give an overview of actually what it's about. [04:58] Yeah, right at its core, we are an NFT brand that is building into being a much larger entertainment brand. [05:08] We follow the blueprint that Pokemon has created and structured over the 30 years it's been around, where at its core it has, you know, 160 different games built across different platforms as, you know, gaming has changed over the years. They've got supporting IP verticals that kind of draw people into that universe, you know, like animated series and merchandising and digital experiences and everything else in between that someone who wants to get lost in that world would want to get lost with. [05:38] Thank you. [05:38] And we're trying to build that brand [05:42] with the community. What makes Web3 very special is that we have co-owners [05:48] of the IP who we can use and leverage as co-creators of the brand. [05:54] You know, not just in terms of, you know, growth and, you know, telling your friends at dinner and lunches about the brand, but, you know, quite literally co-creating it. You know, we create UGC mechanics where we gamify the way in which our co-owners of the IEP can come in and create the TV show with us, you know, with Seth Green and a bunch of other sort of. [06:15] you know, mega stars who you'd never be able to get in a room with, but you can co-create this brand with or, you know, the gaming or the fashion. So we're very excited. You know, our vision really is in 10 years time.

[06:25] We could be as big as any one of these massive entertainment brands exist today, but it's decentralized. It is co-owned, controlled and dictated by companies. [06:35] the people who own it, you know, the thousands of people, you know, our thesis really is that community is the product in a lot of ways. And we've got to, you know, engage them to get them excited to build and to grow this thing. And so, yeah, we're very excited about going on that journey with them. And you're a holder. So I guess you're not. I'm with you. Okay. I'm one of them. I'm the co-creators. And I guess with that, one of the things that I think comes up a lot in your [07:05] And that being very different or there being very unique characteristics that don't exist in Web2 IP. And I feel like what I'm hearing is it's about that co-ownership and about that co-creation. And that's what really makes... [07:20] building in Web3 very different. [07:22] Yeah, I think if you zoom out a second and you actually ask yourself, what are we doing here? Because I think it's very, it's the age old question, the age old question, not in a totally existential way, because that requires a whole separate podcast. That's getting dark. Yeah, we get dark. The more, you know, [07:38] So to try and refine my answer here is, if we zoom out, and this is something Dom and I spend a lot of time thinking about here, is what are we actually doing on a macro level? What is the significance of what we're creating here in relation to what was being done when this industry, this ecosystem, this framework or philosophy didn't exist?

[08:08] ultimately, by the time it gets to market, and if we define market as something outside of the microclimate that we are creating in, it's already pre-validated. So the whole concept of how do you create IP and how that's been done for tens of years before us by big companies with very deep pockets who almost have a formula in inverted commas has been totally challenged and disrupted, which is why entertainment is so interested in what's happening here. Because I could take a [08:38] it in a web three sense it's been validated by 5 000 co-creators and i talk about validation in the sense of you know they identify with it they've they've critiqued and tweaked it to the you know directly to you guys very harshly perhaps sometimes at times let's you know we don't have to we don't have to go there but you know very much it's you know i think it's been refined in in the way that like it's it's had people's honest raw opinion on that and you know [09:08] Thank you. [09:08] Most importantly, when you take that to market, from a transaction perspective and sales perspective against that IP, it can have up to, we've had, what, $250 million of revenue against our IP in the first 12 months before we've gone to a context like Amazon or Netflix who are interested in taking that to mass market. [09:26] And we can say that this is ultimately a very risk-free investment from them. And if you flip that around to what's happening now, it's like, I'll be a big studio. I'll create a bunch of IP. I do it in an almost reckless way because I think that 99% is going to fail. 1% is going to be...

[09:44] you know, be successful. And, you know, there's a lot of inefficiency in that process. Now, it's a different way of building. It's a different way of working. It's ultimately a different philosophy because you're changing the way in which you expose things to a community. And, you know, it's very difficult to make that pivot from a very, you know, institutionalized model, which has been happening for tens and tens of years. But when you've started in this industry [10:14] what it means to build IP in this context. We understand the data points you should be indexing on. What's good data? What's bad data? What's bias? What are the kind of receptors that people are actually saying behind what they're saying? And we can take that model, which is what we're doing now with the Creeps IP, and we can take that to, say, Seth Green, who can then take that to Amazon or Netflix and say, hey, by the way, all these three or four things that you care about from an IP have been validated before you even got here. This is just a matter of blowing [10:44] Fundamentally, is the shift here when we're talking about IP. It's the disruption to the core creation model, the efficiency, the quality, and the speed. And those three things will contribute to how quick we can move and the trajectory in which we can move there. So it's really exciting to be at the forefront of the IP movement, irrespective of where you're applying that, right? Just pure IP at its center. I'll just say, too, I did say the $50 million number, and Joe just said the $250 million number.

[11:14] just go with that because uh 50 billion dollars is deeply impressive but we can five times it and there we go so um and sorry i i just wanted to flag that importantly uh dob you're gonna add yeah i mean we're a bit of a sleeping giant because you know we're spread across a bunch of different collections um which i think a lot of people don't quite realize but you know almost to that point [11:35] you know, beyond... [11:36] IP co-creation and co-ownership and all the PMF value that brings. [11:42] You know, we took a step back a few months after we launched the brand. We're like, OK, cool. We've launched an NFT brand. Tick. We've done that. We're now an NFT brand. Now, you know, moving to mainstream, what is an NFT? Like, what use does it have? And it's an existential question you have to ask because you can build games without NFTs. You can build TV shows without NFTs. You know, why do you need them? [12:00] And really, they're a new form of monetization, they're a new business model. And if you can leverage them in the right ways, you can have amazing results. You know, let's take two of the verticals very quickly. [12:12] When you look at something like Netflix, they live and die by subscription numbers. It's getting highly competitive. [12:19] you know, that market shares been taken away from them. And that's, you know, now reflected in their sort of stock price. So they're looking for alternative revenue streams. [12:28] And interestingly, you know, if you look at a big show like Simpsons, a large portion of their... [12:33] Revenue comes from merchandising it, you know, little toys and, you know, sort of side parts you sell. Now, if you launch a show on Netflix, but, you know, characters are owned by the community, you know, you own a little bit of Marge Simpson, someone else owns a little bit of Homer Simpson, or in the Creeps case, you know, different Creeps.

[12:50] Um, [12:52] You know, you can drive more revenue to that show than you would if, you know, the show alone being a huge success. Or take gaming, for example. You know, free to play gaming is obviously a new business model that's taking off massively. You know, typically as a studio, you only monetize 95 to 98. No, sorry, the opposite. You only monetize 3% to 5% of your customer base. [13:14] And that's because, you know, it's crazy. High cost is a big barrier. Whereas, you know, when there's NFTs involved, you know, the money and hours you invest into a game, you can get back or at least recoup some of it. So you'll be able to monetize, you know, the long tail of a user base. [13:44] invest that cash into more and more products. And you know, that flywheel creates a brand much faster than it would have done in Web2. [13:54] Yeah, and I think I have so many things that I wanted to dig into there, but I'll start with your entire vision kind of hinges on the fact that people have to actually care about these NFTs first. Like you guys actually built at the beginning a very successful NFT project. So starting like genuinely at the beginning, what? [14:14] What do you think were actually the key elements that allowed the project at the beginning to be successful? I really consider you two to be...

[14:22] like two of the hardest working founders that I've ever seen. Like you guys are always on, you work extremely well together. But I'm like, a lot of people are hardworking. Is it just that your specific skill set, the quality of the storytelling, the lore of the creeps? What do you chalk it up to in terms of the main attributes that you were able to kind of get through the noise of, like, it's a super competitive industry. There's an NFT project launching every day. So [14:52] was it for you guys do you think that really pushed it? [14:55] Yeah, in my mind, there were, you know, beyond hard work, which is a given for any founder. There are two main things I think really set us apart. [15:03] The first really was leaning into the idea of IP. You know, I think [15:08] Artwork is what's seen generally as the important factor here, but we saw it as IP. And what is IP? It's more than just artwork itself. It's the narratives, it's the universe around it. It's, you know, the motivations, the... [15:20] you know, the will to want to take on this character and live it and be the protagonist. [15:26] So we really tried hard to build out that universe and suck people in, you know, not just from the site and the lore and the characters, but also how we interact with people on Discord. You know, we we really used to love interactive theater. You know, there's theater we walk through and actors, you know, they they lie to what you're doing. Right. And we treated the discord. You know, we had characters we create like the overlord and people who are chatting, you know, you know.

[15:54] the overlord exists, but a lot of the time it's actually Joe, you know, you know, I was going to say you two, in fact, are the overlords. So I'm honored to actually be interacting with the overlords. I think I've just been exposed to it. Yeah, you've been exposed. I guess. It's quite funny. We've gone into calls with venture capital firms before and they're like, you know, it's great to meet you two, but we'd love to meet the overlord too. In a totally sincere way. [16:19] But yeah, you know, the overlord's in Discord and he's, you know, [16:24] advice and all that kind of stuff. And it's really fun. And I think the second main pillar was [16:29] understanding what your product is. We saw the community as the product in a lot of ways from, you know, Joe and I product people, you know, we've built tech for the past 10 year plus. And we didn't just see the community as, you know, [16:43] Okay. [16:43] fans, we saw them as segments of users who are trying to get something out of the brand [16:49] based on various different factors, how much time they wanted to input, their age, [16:55] how much money they had, what their outcomes were, etc. And so if you segment those users up, you interact with them in very... [17:03] different ways at different points on that journey, you really create this fun, [17:10] fandom that still exists, you know, even in a bear market where, you know, sadly, a lot of discords are quite quiet. It's like a mini city still in our discord, to our own detriment sometimes, but it's awesome, right? But yeah, I think those are the two main pillars. I don't have anything to add, Joe.

[17:26] Yeah. I mean, we came in with no great expectation, in all honesty. Okay. Interesting. We came in very humble, very eager to learn, knowing there was a lot we didn't know. And as natural product builders, we were curious to know these things. So we spent a lot of our time, and you could probably argue too much time, really digging into the psychology of the space and understanding people and behavior, as opposed to, say, figuring out how to scale that behavior [17:56] And what came as a byproduct of that, that natural curiosity, which drives a level of insight, raw insight or raw data, which you can then take as insights, which we then took into a product and iterated in real time. What actually came as a byproduct of that flywheel was that we built an incredible amount of depth with our community. [18:16] I'm going to be frank for a second. We, for a very long time, thought this wasn't going to work. [18:23] And that may be a product of the fact that we are our harshest critics. And we're always going to think that of ourselves because that's what keeps us driving. But really, if you look at the, like, I guess you could see them now as vanity metrics, as opposed to, you know, the sanity metrics, which makes sense, but, you know, follow a number size and engagement metrics and, you know, [18:42] Some of the things that you would typically index or correlate to success in the early days, pre-having a successful mint, we were well behind. And we... [18:53] The thing we missed, and it's almost an impossible thing to qualify, or even quantify in any way, is depth of fandom. Because we'd never met these people,

[19:03] we had no real reference as to, you know, whether this was, um, a good level of engagement or not, in terms of like the kind of more nuanced conversation, you know, how passionate people were talking about it. We weren't running NLP scripts on, on, on a discord chat to be like, oh, they, you know, 95% of people are very happy with what you're saying. I go very engaged, you know, so we, we couldn't, [19:26] necessarily qualify the like the depth of engagement and we were looked at breadth and we were like we just don't have enough people behind this concept to scale or to make this work and this was pre-ment this was this was pre-ment okay interesting how long did you look to build before actually about yeah about five months before four or five months before and that was because we wanted to build with people we you know we're product people we love raw feedback we we [19:56] And we were like, this has to be even before we had a solid name or a website or even like true and like roadmap. [20:04] strategy ironed out, we were like, we just need to understand why people care about this. Why are they here? Who are they? What are they doing? What's their intentions? As Don was saying, this is about entertainment. It's about real people. We wanted to understand who they were. And that obsession with the human behind the PFP allowed us to build incredible amounts of knowledge about the space, about the drivers and the behaviors and intention, and that [20:28] to the point where we actually formed real relationships and real community. And I think you know we could have launched two, three months before we did. We could have been probably just as successful but we wouldn't have had the true fandom that's now going to be able to take us to where we actually can

[20:46] scale this brand, which is to becoming a global entertainment brand with deep, deep roots in community. Because if we'd just done this and focused on the mint and the revenue side, we wouldn't have the strong and core fundamentals and foundations to do this. So [21:00] The hard part that we did at the beginning, and they always say, do the things that don't scale, right? We did the things that didn't scale. And it was terrifying because we're like, we're not going to, this isn't going to work. [21:10] Thankfully, the fandom paid off. Thankfully, the depth of connection was actually greater than the sum of the breadth. And we managed to have a successful Mint Day and then continued success from then on. Did you know it was going to work after Mint Day? You're like, okay, I've got this. Honestly, Mint Day, up until the point that the Mint had sold out, we... [21:36] we had no guarantee that this was going to happen. And there was a moment when we minted out. And up until that point, we were very methodical and planned. And as soon as we minted out, [21:47] you know, I remember one of our team said, have you guys got a tweet ready to go live? And you see this tweet and it's the most unstructured emotion ridden tree ever. And we just, we want, we want the realize we've done it. And it was like a 10, you know, 10, 20 exclamation marks. And there was just no plan of that. You know, we were so we're thinking more about like the downside risk and contingency planning and like, have we got this as opposed to like, how do we celebrate? And, you know, Dom turned to me and was like, I think I'm going to be sick. And I said, I think

[22:17] of like, this is actually happening. Wow, this is incredible to have such amazing fans and believers in the brand and the IP and ours from day one. So it was a very emotional moment. But yeah, I think that like the depth of the fandom and really starting to think about like the people behind the NFTs was a shifting point into like how we've been able to scale continuously and have such continued support to date. [22:44] And, you know, when you said that you can't measure or it was really hard to measure, at least at the beginning, like depth of fandom and intensity, have you discovered ways to measure that now? Yeah. [22:57] Or is that still kind of sits in liminal space and it's hard to really capture the care that people have for the community? [23:06] I think in... [23:09] In ways, yes. You know, we do events in cities all around the world, and people turn up in their homemade costumes. Iconic, iconic. It was a wild party at... [23:21] I'm going to be honest, I didn't actually go, but I did hear that the creeps party at NFT NYC was the best and was like bonkers in terms of what people are up to. [23:32] Let me just say this. There wasn't a creep who didn't have a candle in their pocket at all times in case they needed to do an emergency sacrifice. Which is a fire hazard. Which is a total fire hazard, but all in the name of the overlord. Yeah. [23:45] I think those moments are great because it feels tangible. You can feel the connection with people, but there's definitely other ways. I think it's important to recognize we're in a financial market here and there's definitely financial drivers to being a part of an ecosystem in NFTs. It's highly liquid. You can trade in and out anytime. Ultimately, a lot of people are here to make money. Now, we've seen the market rise. We've also seen the market fall. I think this is

[24:15] very high floor very, very quickly, [24:17] and no one sold. And then we hit a very low floor at some point, and no one sold, and they bought more. And there's this underlying sentiment here, which is like, this is not about the money. This is about the connection, the brand, the community. And I do genuinely say this, mean it when I say it, [24:34] almost dysfunctional family at Overlord where everyone genuinely cares for each other. And it's, it's amazing to say that. And obviously we do generally want to make everyone a lot of money and we want everyone to be rich and have a great time at the same time. But it's really nice to, to know that, you know, [24:51] there could be a world where there wasn't a financial instrument attached to this, and we'd still be hanging out and vibing and sacrificing to the overlord because the connections and the stories and the people that we've met along the way mean much more than that. So yeah, it's definitely, there's like, [25:08] subliminal things or kind of these individual components like that, when compounded, you start to realize what fandom truly means. [25:16] Yeah. And I think, again, that's one of the major differences in building a brand first with NFTs is that it is certainly a financial instrument, but there's way more to it. And it's just like it's a social coordination mechanism that we like actually haven't seen before. And I wanted to, too, in terms of, again, how interested you guys are and were and continue to kind of look at different metrics around the collectors, buyers and understanding who your community is worldwide.

[25:46] What do you think the differences have been as your community has grown that investors are looking for now? [25:55] in terms of why they're spending money or why they're holding versus why they would have bought at the beginning. [26:02] It's a great question. And it's something we sort of verbally communicate to our community sometimes, but they naturally display this behavior. It's understanding the makeup of your personality. [26:12] portfolio and your portfolio is a bunch of different NFT IP, right? And, you know, it's the same with my portfolio as well. I buy some stuff because I'm like, hey, in 48 hours, I think I can make a tiny bit of leaf on this. [26:25] And then there are other projects. So Dom is a founder and an investor. So good to know. I'm a serious paper hand. Okay. [26:36] And, you know, there are other projects where I'm like, hey, I think over the next quarter, something interesting can happen. You know, it's a gamified moment or a bit of hype or whatever. And then, you know, there's other projects. And there's only a few that really are like this where I'm like, you know, I could hold this for a few years. [26:51] Because this is a zero one investment, you know, it's either become a massive entertainment brand, you know, or sort of Peter away. Um, [27:00] And Overlord is one of those. You know, IP is actively being developed by... [27:07] various different domain experts and different verticals who've built billion-dollar businesses in each of those for mainstream. And, you know, if we get that right, it's going to be massive.

[27:17] And so [27:18] I think that behavior changes things. [27:22] is what swapped. You know, we had a lot less retention in the beginning days. You know, there's a lot more sort of people selling and coming in. But now we find if someone buys, you know, they're retained for much, much longer. And we still don't have like long-term retention data. You know, I think we've got [27:38] something mad like 60% of people have never sold since mint. Um, and a lot of those are still active. That is crazy. [27:45] That is crazy. That is so impressive. Yeah, and it's really fun because they really see the value of the IP and how it can be built out into these different... Yeah. [27:53] verticals. So I think that's really the buying behavior that we're seeing now. Just for also the listeners, I know that I've used and you've used both creeps and overlord. Maybe before I follow up with some questions about the actual plans that you have coming up this year, do you want to explain the relationships and or the difference between you two as apparently the overlords and the creeps holders, i.e. me, and where they're at together? Yeah. [28:19] Thank you. [28:20] Yeah, you know, quite simply, you know, the way that we see it is Creeps is our Spider-Man. [28:26] And it lives within... [28:27] Marvel or Overlord. [28:29] So we launched with Creeps. Got it. And about six months in, we realized if we want to expand this brand and this universe, you know, we've got to create an overarching brand with lots of different characters that created over time that all have their own storylines, their own planets within the universe or galaxies. They all have their own independent political economic tensions with enemies and good guys, but also linked together in different ways.

[28:55] And Overlord is that universe. And Creeps is one of the characters within it. [29:01] Okay, okay. I think that'll be helpful for context in terms of the different names. And, you know, kind of following up on, you know, you have announced lots of exciting stuff coming up in terms of expanding IP, building brand, ecosystem coin, animated series, Web3 game, fashion line. [29:31] Um, and some of the things that have really stood out to me about the language that you've used to talk about the fashion line and the real major differentiators, um, that I haven't seen any other projects, um, kind of. [29:44] position in the way that you have is you've said, this is not a merch line. So this is actually a fashion line. Um, I know you're working with, um, West brand labs, X VP of Nike, X CMO of Levi's X VP of Lululemon. So we're talking the heavy hitters. [30:00] world-class people that have built brands before and are extremely, extremely experienced. Um, but [30:06] I wanted to kind of ask you about what do you see as the difference between a merch line and a fashion line? I know you talked before, you know, a lot of actually animated series make money off their merch. So how is the kind of fashion line differentiated and why was it important to actually kind of [30:25] frame it as that.

[30:27] Yeah, great, great question. I think it all goes down to intention. [30:31] And I think we make bold statements like this to really set a contrarian view on our intention in the industry, which I think is refreshing because not enough brands stop to think about what is right for their long term business. [30:50] brand equity and growth. And they think too much around, what do I care about right now? What does the whole of the community think they care about right now from a short-term value perspective? And, you know, I'm going to, [31:01] Again, be very frank, we could have monetized the hell out of our IP from a fashion perspective or merchandise perspective. [31:09] it's very cheap and quick and easy to put a logo on a t-shirt and call it a call it merchandise or call it fashion and um get that on on on an e-com store and sell sell that and we know we're a year in and we trust me we've had a lot of requests for this and instead we've had community popping up and doing their own which is amazing to see um another sign of fandom but what our intention here is that we we've really kind of taken a step back and with everything we do we try and be as much [31:39] really the kind of mission behind it and fashion's no different. So I think when you look at the significance of fashion in our ecosystem, you start to understand like, you know, it's the first time that this IP goes from a digital context to the physical context. And, you know, [31:56] Doing that in a way which is carefully created, is about the storytelling, has as much depth and understanding for the end user as we show online, and is about a continuation of the story that you're seeing in Discord or on Office.

[32:13] social content or on our websites as it is about, you know, creating something that has long-term viable commercial sense. So, you know, fashion and the reason why we have incredible partners here is because they understand storytelling. You know, Nike is about craft. It's, you know, Phil Knight is probably one of the, you know, the kind of Genesis creators of craft in the apparel wear. And the team we have there totally understand the need for this. And it's kind of about [32:43] It's about being about the kind of [32:46] you know, hidden details, whether it's, you know, turning the garments inside and out and having a, having a, um, [32:51] hidden message in there, which takes you to a secret website where you can find a story that you didn't know about the universe beforehand. And we design things for product nerds like us, because we believe that's how you build the best products. And that transition from physical to digital is not something we've done before. We've never created anything where you can touch and feel and wear and almost kind of brand yourself in real life. And we're really excited about [33:21] And the kind of duality of storytelling in the digital and physical is a really powerful thing if you get it right. So, yeah. [33:27] you know, it's our first foray into the space. We, you know, we're going to go in with no, um, great expectations. We're going to go in humble. We're going to go and listen. We're going to learn from our first user base, but truly our goal here is, and really why, you know, let's not all pretend that, you know, we're here just to kind of have fun. We have great ambitions here and the team that

[33:48] are behind the brand and the kind of the network we've built and that the design principles that we've gone in from day one is because we fundamentally believe that this brand has an ability to challenge some of the biggest streetwear brands in the world. You have made bold statements that you want it to be the next supreme. We have. We have. [34:08] Big. It's big, but you know, [34:11] Every great fast streetwear brand, in my view, comes out of a counterculture movement. You know, skateboarding, graffiti, painting. [34:19] punk rock you know it comes out of this space where people are you know irreverent at their core they care about that you know the time and the place in the moment um irrelevant of the context they care about themselves and that the community and what the movement they're making there and you know often marginalized until it becomes from a subculture to a mainstream culture and that's what nf that's what nfts is you know it's a disruption to how things are being created [34:49] it's two fingers up to traditional states of capital raising, of creation. And I think you take all this essence of why do people come here for the adventure, for the fact that they can own and be themselves, and you channel that into something like [35:06] streetwear and we have an opportunity to be just as authentic as some of the greats so [35:11] I, it's a big, big statement for a hundred percent. And it's something that, you know, like I said, we're going to make bold statements, but we're going to go in humble and we're going to focus on the people. We're going to focus on the craft and the storytelling. And it's not just about making money and it's about, you know, building something that truly has an ability to make a difference and speak to people. So yeah, fashion is very exciting. Dom and I are not fashionable. So let's, you know, I mean, for the listeners, they did both wear collared shirts.

[35:41] E... [35:42] But who's to say maybe just for themselves or for each other, you know, just look nice. 100%. But we're not, you know, we're not fashionable. It's why we have great partners. But what we do know is that the connections and the stories that we're building in the digital sense and the fandom that we've seen over the last 12 months is a really powerful thing. And if we can bottle up even just a tiny percentage of that and put that into a fashion brand, it's going to be very special. And I think, I mean, what I haven't heard it said quite like, you know, you put it, [36:12] that all streetwear, really unique, innovative brands have come from counterculture. And that is exactly what NFT IP or Web3 IP is ripe to do and transition into it. And I'm really excited for the launch. [36:28] And I guess the other thing that has always stood out to me, and you both have mentioned it today, but you're really, really... [36:39] tuned in to the community and to the audience, you're listening all the time and you're, you're genuinely wanting feedback from them. How do you know, like, you know, you're getting, obviously it's, it's discord. You're getting feedback 24 seven. It does not turn off. How do you two both manage, um, kind of filtering out or, or knowing what to take and what not to? It's a hard challenge. And you're going back to my answer earlier on,

[37:09] You realize there are different points in the journey. [37:12] people want different things out of the brand. And we learned very early on the hard way that... [37:18] Any reaction that can happen will happen. You release something, you're excited about it. Someone will be angry. Someone will be amazed. Someone will be pissed off and sad. The other person will be jumping up and down. And so you realize you're building things to different people. And by doing that, you realize... [37:40] I guess organic moments [37:42] which are a clue to something you can build out so take the fashion that joe was just talking about you know that wasn't we didn't just sit down one day and say hey we need to build a fashion brand we started seeing sort of [37:52] Sticky behavior there. [37:54] you know, it, we had organic roots in it, you know, the psychrome, um, the, the artist that we hired to, to, you know, do the art, you know, he's an ex rapper. He's now 45 years old and lives in Bristol, but he was an ex rapper and is the lead artist of Sneaker Con. Perhaps he's Banksy as well. Maybe he's Banksy and he's very deep and sneaky. So he, so he did lots of like really cool fashionable items on the creeps and off the back of that, you know, just for, again, for our listeners that don't know, like the creeps, like they're so cute. Mine has a Burberry hat. There's, [38:24] your references. There's the hundreds there's obey. Um, so again, as I said, there's kind of the streetwear, um, luxury fashion mix. Um, the creeps are like the, they have the cutest outfits. They also have like, um, really like there's bella clavas it's, it's they're, they're, they're very fashion forward. I will say, sorry to cut you off, but just, just to keep the listener up to date in terms of they come fully dripped out. Um, like any boy at an NFT conference might show up. So.

[38:50] Yeah, exactly. They're super fashion forward, unlike Joe and I. But, you know, there were moments beyond that where we saw, you know, sticky behavior in the fashion, you know, through our management company, you know, we found out that Jaden Smith and Justin Bieber, they love these things, you know, not very public about it, but, you know, they talk about it when the management room and they, you know, they love the brand. [39:10] You know, someone sent us a link out of the blue. It's on YouTube. You can Google it. Type in Brooklyn Beckham Vogue. [39:16] He's doing a Vogue interview. Oh, I've seen it. I've seen it. And halfway through it, he pulls out his phone from his bag. He's like, oh, this is my phone background, my favorite, you know, creep. And it's a creep on the back of it. It's a really fashionable, dripped out thing. You know, my sister, unlike me, is very fashionable. You know, she hangs out with a very fashion forward, bunch of fashion influencers here in London. [39:40] You know, they went crazy for a random bit of merch that actually one of our holders printed. It's like a pink hoodie, which says NGMI on it in green. It's one of the traits on the creeps, but, you know, it's not and it's not much to be created. A holder did. [39:52] She wore it out. Turns out a bunch of her fashion influencer friends wanted it. Then a celebrity wore on their Instagram. And before we knew it, we hadn't realized this random pink trait had become this crazy must have trend in London. And, you know, I think seeing those organic moments were like, OK, it makes sense for us to move into building a fashion brand here. You know, it's it's building for the audience that we've attracted, you know, a very Gen Z, trendy streetwear kind of brand, you know, audience.

[40:22] people who would queue up for Supreme or queue up for Palace or whatever it might be. So, you know, that's where that dream came from. And, you know, Westband Labs, you know, they saw that, the beginnings of that. And that's when they got in contact and said, hey, I think we've got to do something here. [40:35] That's super interesting. And the power of user-generated content and that it's normally talked about in a digital context, but it's literally merchandise. The content is actually what people are wearing and taking that feedback and moving into it. So the last thing that I wanted to ask you about before there's some other general questions is that you're also releasing a game and [41:05] released actual real gameplay footage developed in Unreal Engine 5 looks amazing. And I think there's, of course, so much talk about Web3 Gaming, what it can do, what it means. So how do you see Web3 Gaming being an important piece to the puzzle for you? [41:25] Yeah. You know, Joe and I, when we asked where are NFTs going and where's blockchain going, where's Web3 going, we saw gaming as the gateway drug to Web3. You know, over the next few years, when hundreds of millions of, you know, mainstream users come into the space, we think it will be through gaming. [41:45] You know, the benefits of, [41:48] Um, [41:49] to a user, [41:51] are obvious, the benefits as a business model are obvious.

[41:54] So gaming was very important to us. [41:56] I think the other thing is, [42:00] I believe it was John at Andreessen Horowitz. He tweeted out that the next Marvel Universe will come from gaming. Yes. [42:07] And you're seeing a lot of brands do that. You know, Cyberpunk was a fantastic example. Very hyped game. They launched too early because of pressures from community. Terrible launch. They created an animated series, went on Netflix, got a bunch of hype. Millions of people came back into gaming. And you're seeing this happen. You know, The Witcher came out with a great show. The Last of Us, which is one of my favorite games of all time, just came out of the show, which is... I haven't actually watched it yet, but everyone's saying it's mind-blowing. [42:37] that [42:38] You know, given we're building into being an entertainment brand, [42:42] It makes sense for us to build in gaming, to be a Trojan horse for tens of millions of users, but also it allows us to create immersive worlds and really create narratives and lore and interactivity. [42:54] that we couldn't do in any other medium quite in the same way. [42:58] Yeah, and I saw you retweet that John from A16's kind of overview of the different games and the relationship between... [43:09] television IP versus gaming and actually driving it back to the game. And I thought that was super fascinating. Um, and I mean, I guess then, you know, [43:19] where I wanted to, you have so much going on and so many different streams. So in terms of kind of keeping the community updated, how do you actually manage the

[43:31] kind of communicating clearly your vision when there's a lot of different things happening at once. I imagine there has to be actually a real thought out strategy or else everything can kind of get muddled. [43:45] It's a really hard thing to do because you are, as a business, on show the whole time here. We often talk about being public companies. You're born in this space and then you're instantly public. You instantly have the highs and lows of the market. Public companies and public figures. Lucky for you guys. And you're building a new company in a new industry, totally exposed, warts and all. [44:15] a challenge to then understand, okay, what do you surface and bring people as part of that creation process? And what actually is detrimental to the kind of success of the community or the kind of sentiment of the space? [44:29] for doing that. And it's a fine line. I think Dom talks quite nicely around segmenting the community and understanding who's here for what thing. We've done that very well with different tiers, whether that's through engagement tiers, whether that's through holder levels. If you look at our kind of the largest tier in the community, which is our big lizard energy [44:52] community. Yeah. Yeah. You have to own 25. You have to own 25. Correct. And, you know, we're having, you know, one-on-one conversations with them weekly. We do monthly group calls, which is almost like a micro AGM where we talk openly and transparently, you know, nothing on unfair is shared. It's just more a time to have a frank conversation as founders to some of the biggest holders in this, in the brand around the challenges and troubles or, or your expectations

[45:22] not saying we've got it right, because I think that would mean that we're not trying to improve it. I think we are getting to a place where we have an understanding of who's here for what and how to communicate to them. Now, being a public company means that you've got to be very careful around how you share information, because unless you give enough information, that the gap is going to be filled by someone that isn't you, and your narrative is going to be controlled by someone [45:52] 12 months, a lot of what we're doing here today. And I guess when you talk about like, I was doing a lot, it feels like that because I guess, [46:00] entertainment brands have an ability to scale to so many different verticals. It's not us overstretching. It's ultimately us designing a strategy and a funnel that takes mass market, top of funnel media, whether it's animation or short form content or fashion, and uses that as a strategic funnel into the core ecosystem, which is gaming. Now, we've got to go build that because that framework isn't there. And it will be over the next 12 months, it'll become very clear as [46:30] the core beating drum of the brand. It's the games, it's the, you know, it's the gameplay experiences, it's the assets that you're using in these web three contexts. Um, and [46:39] But the thing that's going to make that scale and sustain and the reason that we're going to become a major game in a kind of Web2 context and a household name from a brand IP perspective is because of the media. So communication, I guess, is an iterative thing. It's something you've got to learn about. But I often think that we can communicate and communicate.

[46:59] but we've kind of got to show it through what we built. And 12 months time from now, I think it will become very clear why we do what we do, because it's all purposely designed to drive a specific type of behavior. And I'm hoping that you won't need to over-communicate. I'm hoping that it will become a kind of, [47:17] de facto understanding of why you're in this context. And that will happen, I believe, at the same time as the community scales. So you'll have people who care about IP and then people who care about gaming and that community will split. And those kind of intentions and desires for being there will be made clear. Yeah, that's really interesting. And I mean, [47:37] In terms of you guys are talking, I mean, obviously building a game that takes a lot of time, a lot of capital, a lot of planning. So how, you know, you're talking kind of [redacted address] in terms of this big vision and building it. How do you manage, because CryptoMove's. [47:54] Super fast. So how are you able to kind of manage, react to market conditions and adjust on the fly while then also still continuing to build for the long term, still moving into that vision? [48:06] But, you know, obviously things change in a moment in crypto. [48:13] Yeah. [48:13] Yeah, it's something that's very important to handle well. And what we're doing over this year is... [48:21] at least internally, and this will become much more obvious externally, [48:25] is realizing that we're growing [48:28] to product. [48:29] two products, essentially. You know, there's the products for the NFT community, and there's the products for mainstream. They do cross over in different ways. You know, the community will co-create or have gamified moments where they'll have a hand in the animation or the gaming.

[48:44] But you know the the product cycles for the mainstream are much longer you know building a [48:49] An amazing double A standard game can take a year, 18 months. [48:55] And, [48:57] by [48:59] Splitting the product lines into two, you know, we're able to build big picture, big vision products that we think could drive, you know, the billion dollar value revenues down the line, while also building experiences and products for the NFT community so they can stay engaged and get the value that they want. [49:19] in a way that is exciting, not only to them, but to other people who may want to come in and enjoy the brand. [49:27] Yeah. Okay. That's really interesting in terms of thinking of, thinking of it as segments. So, so some can, some certain kind of pillars can be more reactive than others. And, and that, that totally, totally makes sense. Um, and you know, we are, I, I have so many more questions. We are winding down. So I just, I wanted to end with, with a couple, um, that I think, um, our listeners, uh, I mean, I guess I'm speaking for myself. Um, I'm very interested to know, which is, um, you, you guys have built this, [49:57] incredible brand. It's you two. Obviously, you have an amazing team and an amazing support system, but I imagine that it's just a tremendous amount of pressure, along with excitement and a lot of ups. But there's a lot of people that have spent a lot of money, a lot of time in your ecosystem

[50:27] and pressure of delivering all of this. [50:32] Yeah, it's an outrageous amount of pressure. [50:38] Yeah, I can imagine. It's kind of the dirty topic that's not often talked about in NFTs. There's a lot of mental health issues amongst founders. We've been on calls with founders of NFTs. [50:49] And, you know, typically solo founders, you know, thankfully, Joe and I have each other's support and, you know, we're fine. But, you know, we get on calls with solo founders in the space, you know, big projects and, you know, they break into tears on the call. It's really sad to see. [51:01] There's a lot of pressure, you know, when you're... [51:04] When you've IPO'd a company and you've got thousands of employees and thousands of customers and your P&L is healthy and the people who've invested are institutional investors who've got financial accreditation, [51:18] That's stressful as hell. And they always, you know, you always talk to a fan of like, don't go public. On the best of days. Right. But then you reduce that to what this is, which is, you know, it's a very volatile market, very early days, you know, very emotional driven at times. [51:34] And you've got a lot of people who've put a lot of their, you know, a large percentage of their wealth in believing in these brands. [51:43] How to deal with that is... [51:47] Joe and I have been best friends for 10 years plus. We work extremely well together. We know our strengths. We know our weaknesses. We know how to split. We know how to be yin and yang and play off each other whenever we need to. And we also know how to have a bottle of wine and relax and talk to each other about the troubles and the wins and the great things. But so far to date, it's been great. And it's very helpful having...

[52:14] such an amazing team around you and support network you know [52:19] We've got a team of 30 beneath us. They're all smart. They're all ambitious. They all work hard, whether they're actually in the office or they're remote. And a great support network of amazing people. We met Web3. You know yourself, Blake. It's amazing when you meet smart, ambitious people in the space who are all driving towards this mission. We're all adventurous together. It makes it exciting. It makes it all worth it. [52:40] So that's kind of [52:42] Ciao! [52:44] I don't think ever before has... [52:46] social and finance being so closely linked. Totally. Totally. You know, it's, it's a terrifying marriage. You know, the, the, the kind of, you know, one is very, I mean, both of them are sort of very emotional, you know, you know, these, these kinds of social media platforms thrive and crave emotion. The things that are the most divisive get the most virality, you know, that's [53:16] is finance and you naturally allow people who are unsophisticated investors to over leverage themselves and take out positions in unsecuritized assets, you're going to be in worlds where [53:30] that there's high risk involved with that. And people are going to win, but others are going to lose on the side of it. And you're almost kind of fueling something into an algorithm which craves that exact fuel. And you understand why this place is so challenging at times. Now, the feeling of winning is palpable. The feeling of losing is almost more difficult. Now, we've definitely

[54:00] reason why we're here is that we jump from a very [54:04] you know, [54:05] Cushy is probably a nice space. It was safe. I say cushy in a way, not because it was easy, but because it was almost well-trodden. It was predefined. We were building startups in Web2 where [54:19] enough people could tell you that here's a zero to a billion dollar journey for a sas product or a fitness tech product you know there's there's enough kind of case studies as to what success looks like and enough kpis as to what investors are looking for enough you know frameworks for how you how you you run kind of okrs in that context you take this to a whole new industry and i think you you throw away the rule book the status quo is out the window and and you know you have to be a certain type of person to want to come and put yourself into that industry and [54:49] Dom and I had since the age of 18, where we met have always put, [54:54] our personal, probably not happiness, but personal self aside for the greater good, not in a come by our way, but truly in the fact that we truly believe that we have the ability to create something amazing and magical here. And [55:12] Yes, there's a bit of sadomasochism there that we love the pain and we love to keep driving through it. I feel like all founders are like that. I don't know what it is. I think there's something to it, right? [55:24] Dating a founder? [55:26] I can't imagine. Yeah, my girlfriend certainly has a hard time. But yeah, the point I'm making is more that I think what we really kind of come back to in a lot of these scenarios, when it's tough or when the pressure's high, is like, why the hell are we here?

[55:42] we're here because we generally think we have the ability to build something that is meaningful and can shape the world that that's in front of us. So this is not about money. It's, [55:51] It's not about fame. It's not about the highs. It's not about the lows, I hope, but it's about the kind of five-year journey. And it's the thing that we're really obsessing over here. It's about the creation and the ability to change people's lives and industry with it. So that is often harder to imagine and remember at times of low and times of pressure, but having a great co-founder is definitely a way to remind you of that and a great team as well. So... [56:15] Amazing. That's an amazing answer. I will just ask you one more thing before you go. I know that we've passed the hour mark of the iCalendar invite. What would you say, just to finish, is the biggest thing you've learned since you started the project? [56:35] Great question. Our hypothesis when we came into the space was that we could build something greater [56:45] quicker and more efficient as a [56:49] team of 5,000 than we could as a team of 30. [56:53] you know, we truly jumped into the space because we believed in co-creation. And we believed that if enough people came together, we could, um, [57:02] the kind of compound value of that was greater than the sum of what you could create alone. And I think that [57:08] That's a thesis, right? It's not being proven in Web2. Glossier did a fairly good job of this, bringing people into the funnel of creating makeup.

[57:17] Boys Club loves Glossier, I will say. I love Glossier as well. I think it was a great example. You're a user. You're a wearer, personally. As you can tell. Always, as I can tell. It goes with my polo shirt. But it was a thesis. It was a hypothesis that mutual incentive models through tokenization provide the perfect hotbed for co-creation. [57:38] that through that success and i think we've you know proven over the last 12 months that that thesis [57:44] in a lot of ways, it's true. It needs to grow and it needs to mature. We need to get to a point where the co-creation outweighs the financial benefit of co-creating. There's definitely ways of doing that through different factors like social status or other capital measures which aren't financial. But that's something that I guess we've been pleasantly [58:09] surprised about is that, you know, actually when you do put 5,000 people together, you can create something really, really good and you can create it really quickly. And you can drive a lot of excitement and mainstream attraction to something that, you know, [58:24] ultimately you've opened up to the world and you've crowdsourced. So [58:31] To say it's an experiment is probably the best way to look at it because you don't know what happens when you put 5,000 people at a problem. I've been pleasantly surprised about the value of the output. As a natural control freak, it's been a hard thing to go through, but I'm very glad we've done that.

[58:50] Yeah. Yeah. Makes, makes so much sense. And Dom, lastly, what do you think is the biggest thing that you've learned? Yeah, on the other side of the coin of... [58:59] Co-creation is co-ownership and [59:02] It's been totally eye-opening and fascinating what that does. There's ownership on a sentiment level. I've never been a huge sports fan, but my dad was and some of my friends were. You see them at a football match. They're wearing the shirt, they're singing the songs. [59:18] They're feeling genuine emotions of the highs and lows of a goal going in or not. [59:26] And [59:28] seeing or not or not and and you know [59:32] To some extent, backing some of this IP is a bit like backing a sports team. [59:38] You're all there cheering together, you're spreading the word, you're evangelizing it, you're advocating it, you know, you're wearing the digital T-shirt with your tweets. You know, you're singing the songs with your Discord spaces and your Twitter spaces. And, you know, you add the steroid of not just sentiment of co-ownership, but actual co-ownership. [1:00:00] um and it's it's a totally different beast and [1:00:06] It's been eye-opening at a level of 5,000 to 10,000 co-owners or fans. I'm very, very excited to see what that looks like at a million, at 10 million, and 50 million and beyond. I think the ferociousness of the fandom that's going to come out of the brands in the space is going to be pretty special. Amazing.

[1:00:26] I've always been such a big fan of the Creeps ecosystem. And this podcast has just made me more of a fan. [1:00:36] store is so exciting and I can't wait for all of the listeners and for myself to follow it. So thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your time and, um, [1:00:46] I just... [1:00:47] I can't wait for everything that's in store this year. [1:00:51] Amazing. Well, thanks for having us. Like I said, we were so excited. This definitely hasn't disappointed. Amazing. And we hope to come back at some point. Oh my gosh, you have to. [1:01:00] we can share more around how the fashion launch went and where we're at with gaming and love it. You know, a bunch of the other exciting things that unfortunately we can't share everything today, but redacted as the creeps would say, everything, everything. [1:01:14] That's an insider reference for the people that don't get that. Once you dive in, you will. [1:01:19] when you dive in. Yeah, when you dive in. But thank you. This has been really fun.