Prompt Your Way To Personal Growth - Ep. 51 with Steve Schlafman

[00:00] I paid ChatGPT $20 a month. I now have access to a skilled Jungian analyst, dream analyst. I designed using ChatGPT a fire ceremony. What happened is I basically walked in with my VC clothing, like an old outfit that I used to wear. And I literally stripped down naked, [00:30] huge emotional relief. AI is like the ultimate integrator of these peak experiences, of these rich experiences, and it helps us deepen in ways that we wouldn't have been able to before. What I'm realizing is that AI has a real opportunity to dramatically expand consciousness of people. [01:00] you [01:07] Steve, welcome to the show. Hey, Dan. So good to see you, brother. So good to see you too. So for people who don't know, you are the founder of Downshift. You are a former VC and now an executive coach. He specializes in transitions for high-performing people like founders. Your main claim to fame, of course, is you're an original every investor. Yes, yes. And one thing that we were talking about, which I kind of wanted to start with,

[01:37] And, [01:38] I guess the journey that you've seen [01:40] us take and what that, um, I guess what that says about what it's like to start something new and, and, um, [01:49] versus what people typically expect a startup to look like. Can you just tee us up for a second? Yeah, well, I... [01:59] Dan and I were reflecting for a few minutes before the show began to roll. And one of the things that I really appreciated about Dan when he was starting his fundraising process was like, I don't think I want this to be a venture-backed company. I don't even know what it's going to become, but hey, we're going to build something special. [02:29] pitch and this vision of the way the world was going to be and what and how every was going to fit into it. And as I've been sitting with it and watching you and the way you've built it, it's like, I'd imagine that version of you five years ago, couldn't have predicted whatever it was going to become. No. [02:48] No way, no way. And, and it's, it's almost like, as I think about us building downshift, um, [02:56] I see downshift as a container for emergence. So I think a lot of the time in startup culture, it's like we have this idea and we see it as a company day one. And then it becomes a thing that's rigid.

[03:13] And instead of seeing it as a company in the earliest days, just seeing it as a container for emergence. I love it. How do you define emergence in this context? Yeah, it's almost like I love the idea of the adjacent possible. Stuart Kaufman at the Santa Fe Institute coined it. [03:43] where there's a set of capabilities and that current set of capabilities eventually unlocks the adjacent possible, which is an entirely new set of capabilities. And so the way I like to think about emergence is that we have, in a company, there's like a set of ideas, a set of capabilities, [04:13] and the opportunities emerge and things are proven, disproven, and it becomes this almost like this organic process versus this process that's like forced. Yeah. Here's how I think about this. And I think this fits in really well to your point. And I've only recently been able to like sort of articulate this, but I'm curious what you think. I think it'll be interesting. So I think the thing that you're pointing to, like when I showed up and was fundraising... [04:41] and wasn't like, here's a big

[04:44] Here's this big thing. It's definitely going to be change the world or whatever. But I was like, here are some things I know. And here's some things I think. And I kind of want to I want to create a space to like play around, basically. I think the the reason why the other way of doing things is. [04:59] Sometimes it's helpful, but a big reason why it's not helpful and why it becomes rigid is because... [05:07] That is basically people... [05:09] doing what they think they should do or telling the story they think they need to tell in order to raise money. And sometimes that is actually true. You actually do need to tell that story. But as I've run every for a longer and longer period of time and just generally have been starting companies for basically my whole life... [05:26] I've started to realize how much of company building is an expression of who you are as a founder. [05:35] Um, [05:36] and how much better companies go when a company is... [05:41] an expression of who you authentically are. [05:44] versus who you think you should be or think you need to be or whatever. [05:49] And the reason why people end up doing those things [05:53] pitches is because they're not particularly comfortable with who they are and they want to start a company in order to be seen differently or whatever, which is totally real. I do that too. I did that a lot. And it took me... I raised money in this way that was like, hey, I don't know what this is, blah, blah, blah, whatever. But even still, right after I raised money, I just pretended basically to be a venture-backed CEO for the next two years, which was horrible for me and horrible for every because I was not at all...

[06:19] the, um, [06:22] I was grinding against my nature. And once I really just admitted like, Hey, like I want to be a writer and every, I really want every to be a great business. I want it to be an institution. But I want to do it by spending most of my time writing or at least half my time writing, which I know I'm not supposed to do as like a venture back founder. You're not supposed to do that. But as soon as I did that, everything sort of unlocked in this like kind of crazy way. [06:52] that, that I wanted to be a writer and that I wanted to start a business, but I, but I also wanted to like, have it be part of being like building a great business. And then I, um, I, [07:02] I asked ChatGPT, has anyone else done this? [07:04] which is an un-Google-able question. You cannot Google for that. Right. You can absolutely not. And ChatGPT was like, yeah, like Sam Harris, for example, writer, podcaster, has Waking Up app. It's like a gigantic, amazing business. Or Bill Simmons, who like podcaster, started the ringer in Grantland and sold it to Spotify for a couple hundred million bucks. And I was like, oh, wow, I can do this. And there are like patterns that... [07:25] for how to do it, but like, it's not talked about at all because it's not the typical Silicon Valley story. And I, I, I bring all this up because I think that that sort of the way that things end up emerging organically is... [07:40] You're in a position where you can allow yourself to be sort of your full self. And that is going to be... That business that you build is going to be a sort of unique shape that is...

[07:53] Actually, sort of illegible because it's hard to describe in terms of past patterns. I think those are the best businesses. And obviously, you can go back once you have it and start to put words to it and start to describe it. But the businesses that are most legible are often the businesses where you're fitting into a pre-established box that you know works that's actually not particularly compatible with you or compatible with the world. [08:23] I thought you'd like that. I love it. And it's interesting. So much was coming up as I was listening to that. First, I'm thinking about one of my clients right now. Started a unicorn. [08:39] in his previous business. He went and raised venture capital for his second business. And what he's realizing is that it's boxing him in. It's almost as if his creativity and his genius isn't able to fully flourish because he feels the pressure of having to build a certain kind of business that's no longer aligned with who he is. And I just think that there's something [09:09] And I think about downshift and the way that we're building it, you use the word playground. I like to think of it as a sandbox. And, and for us, it's, it's, it's like a playpen where it's like, we know we're really passionate about this problem of helping professionals through transition.

[09:39] to see how it's going to change. Yeah. And, and it's going to change not because, not just because what we're learning from the market, but because who we're realizing we are as human beings and who I am as a founder. Yeah. And, and the last thing I would say, so it's like, you're reading my journal. Um, I wrote that, like the next chapter of downshift, [10:03] is going to be like me really leaning into my genius and the things that I love to do, which is write and create and coach. And if I'm not doing those things, then I'm not going to be happy. And it's not going to be the most aligned, fullest expression of me. [10:21] I love that. I love that. And it's so funny how hard those choices are. And it's like, oh, I got to make that choice again, you know, but once you do it, even if it's scary, it like it works, at least in my experience, it tends to work, which is great. Maybe I'm lucky because like my passion isn't like playing classical flute or something, you know, but at least for people who love business and jazz flute. And yeah, I think part of this is... [10:47] Another way I've been playing around with thinking about it and describing it is that I think a previous version of... [10:54] business. [10:56] the way that we've thought about it is it's sort of like science. And building a business is sort of like a machine, and you are like a machine. And therefore, you need to think about it in those very reduced terms.

[11:09] Um, and so if you're a unicorn founder and like, obviously the next thing you want to do is build the biggest thing possible. And the way to do that is to like, uh, uh, raise money from the most impressive VCs. And then you're like, yeah, go, go to, go to Sequoia or any number of great funds. [11:26] And you're like, cool, I'm going to be a machine and it's going to be a machine and whatever. And then you're like, actually, I feel very boxed in, you know, like I don't really. And I think that what that boxed in feeling indicates to me is there's a different way of building businesses that looks at building businesses as art. [11:44] as a creative expression. And that's not for everybody. Not all people need to think that way. But that's definitely how I feel. And that's sort of the happiest that I am. [11:57] And... [11:57] If you're building businesses as art, the choices that you make are going to be different because they're going to be about how you feel and whether you're in that creative mode enough. [12:10] And I think you can... [12:12] actually also build a really great, really big business doing that. But it's just going to look a [12:17] other sorts of businesses and you have to deal with the, um, [12:21] The kind of like side eye you get from people for a while, you know, it was really hard for a couple of years, like building everything, being like, I'm building a newsletter. People didn't like that. [12:32] Newsletters can be very good businesses. [12:34] Not to, I mean, but not to, uh, not to the people that we hang out with, you know, or not all of them, but some of them, you know, even if your business is making a couple million bucks a year, that's like nothing, you know, it's like not even worth your time.

[12:46] Yeah. And I think, though, you're one of those founders that are unwilling to just stay on a track. [12:56] And that you're open to what wants to emerge. [13:00] I try to be. I really try to be. And look at every now. It is very much a playground for you. Yeah. And I think you've made a lot of the same decisions. You had a really great VC job and you could have done that forever and it's really hard to go off and do what you did. [13:20] And I want to start to transition this conversation because I know you have a lot of AI stuff to share with us. [13:30] you tell me, but I feel like about a year ago, [13:35] I was writing a lot of takes about AI and therapy and coaching and blah, blah, blah, blah. Saw those. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely felt like you were... [13:44] sort of wary of it taking away the human element and maybe like wary of using it. And I think, I don't know what's changed, but I think that something has changed. Maybe you're, maybe you still are wary of that, which I think is a legit thing to be wary about, to be clear, but you at least seem to have found things that you are enthusiastic about. So, so give us, give us like a high level overview of like where you are in your kind of AI perspective. [14:07] thinking and journey. [14:09] and where you started and where you are now. Yeah. A few caveats before I share. First, I am not on the bleeding edge of AI.

[14:19] Um, second is, um, I have been a lover of technology my entire life. And so I've been very fortunate to see a number of pretty massive trends, internet, mobile, social, crypto, um, [14:39] What I'm going to say is that AI is the most profound thing I've ever seen. [14:44] It, it, um, it, [14:48] By each passing day, I just cannot believe the power, the cost, the depth, the breadth. And I really believe that we're on the cusp. Using my language in transition, we're on the cusp of a major, what I've been calling the great transition. And I don't necessarily think that we're prepared yet based on what's coming. Interesting. Transition from what to what? [15:18] I don't know. I'm not a futurist, but I can feel it. I can feel that there's something about this technology that is so powerful that it's going to fundamentally reshape the way that everything is done in a way that we haven't seen before. And I see it in my own life. [15:39] I see it in my own life. [15:40] Well, take us through, like pick something concrete that you're using it for that you want to talk about. Well, I don't know if your audience would consider this concrete, but I have a lot of fun with it. So one of the things I'm focused on right now is I love Bill Plotkin, who wrote a book called Soulcraft. He runs an organization called the Animus Valley Institute. He's an eco-depth psychologist. That's cool. What's eco-depth?

[16:10] So EcoDepth Psychologist is a brand of depth psychology that uses kind of the intersection of nature and psyche and the exploration of nature and how it impacts the psyche. [16:29] At the deepest levels. Like the therapy occurs in nature or you're using like natural archetypes like a waterfall or sunlight to help explore how you feel about something? [16:38] Both. Okay. Yeah. That's really interesting because I was living in Panama for the last month or so, and I lived in this... [16:48] cottage in the jungle. [16:52] And [16:52] There were no glass windows. It was all screens. And so I was just literally outside... [16:59] For a month? [17:00] like hearing the wind and the trees and the birds and you could hear the ocean, you could hear monkeys. And it was such a, [17:08] Beautiful, like spiritual experience. Like I miss the trees, just like watching trees. There's so much like depth in and richness in nature that there is a kind of richness in a city, but it's just, it's very different. And anyway, you're just making me think of that and how... [17:25] how amazing that was. It was very important to me. [17:29] And we're wired to want to be in those environments. But coming back to Plotkin, so I've been going really deep. And part of his work and going deep into the psyche is dream work. So I have been working with ChatGPT as a Jungian dream analyst. Me too. That's awesome. Yeah.

[17:54] I've been recording my dreams every morning using audio, which we should come back to audio as, as a form of input because it's something I've been obsessed with, um, and thinking about, but yeah, [18:08] Sorry, not audio, voice. And I've been really obsessed with voice, but I've been recording my dreams and then having these like deep at what what Young used to call active imagination, where you're going back into the dream and then re-experiencing it and then taking action. [18:38] So here is the output. I put it in a notion just so you could get a sense. And so this is literally verbatim, the expression. So I had a dream where I was setting up a base camp on a big mountain. Basically, it was a tent. And it wasn't an expedition, but it was a solo retreat partway up the mountain. [19:08] was that I would have to return to the tent later. So then I had all these emotions in the dream. Um, [19:17] And then I was walking back up and then I found a mask. [19:23] And, you know, here it says on the one point I was making my way up the mountain, I found something buried in the snow, a knitted ski mask that covered the whole head with cutouts for eyes and mouth. It was made of multicolored thread. I remember digging it out and deciding to keep it.

[19:53] Thank you. [19:53] represent. And one of the things that I've been really focused on is really cultivating the four windows of knowing. So the four windows of knowing are feeling, thinking, sensing, and imagining. And the feeling and imaginal realms are largely ignored. And so I'm studying to be a somatic [20:23] that has largely gone unexplored. So I'm using chat GPT to explore these images. So there's sort of the mountain, the fear of the night, [20:33] The buried mask, what does that mean? Here in ancient rites, masks were worn by initiates to embody a new self, protect against the forces, or allow access to hidden wisdom. And then it gives reflections. So then what ends up happening is now there's these active imagination prompts. So then what I do is I do a whole reflection. I did a whole journaling session based on what came up. [21:03] it back using voice into chat GPT. And then I get another, a whole rich depth into what just came up. You know, the mountain reflects where I am in my life, downshift, family, spiritual pursuits. I'm now standing at this threshold, right? Like fear of going up the mountain at night,

[21:33] is the part of me that can sense there's changes and like fear of it, right? And then the very- [21:41] I want to pause you. Let me pause you. This is really great. I'm 100% with you. I use this for this all the time. But I want to back up. [21:49] And, [21:50] like set the scene or set the table for maybe someone who's listening or watching that [21:57] is, you know, comes from the startup world, comes to the tech world and thinks of themselves a little bit more hard-boiled and is like, this is a little woo-woo for me. Like... [22:06] Tell me about what got you into this and what you feel like the value is for you so that we can bring those people along too. [22:13] Yeah. Well, I want to go back to the four windows of knowing, right? There are four ways of experiencing the world. There's the rational mind, the thinking, there's the senses, and then there's the feeling in the imaginal realms. These are just different ways into experience. If there's a [22:41] Thinking is very, very important, but it's just one frame of seeing the world in interacting with reality. And I think there's an opportunity here. What I'm realizing is... [22:56] I actually think back to this experience I had eight years ago. I'm at breakfast with a friend of mine, Jonathan Basker, who's a longtime coach. And I remember I was complaining about something in my VC firm and he's like, where in your body do you feel that?

[23:14] And I'm like, get the f*** out of here. I'm not going there with you. And because I used to be that hyper-rationalist. And what's happened is as I've gone deeper into these various windows of knowing, what I'm realizing is there's so much intelligence. There's so much intelligence in our nervous system. [23:39] and our feelings. And now what I'm realizing in this imaginal realm in the dream, I had a dream the other night, a different dream where I was in a convenience store and I ran into my twin brother and I broke down crying. And my twin brother was my best friend and he and I have grown apart. And that day I called him. I shared the dream report with him and I was like, look, I want to [24:09] And it like that, that image of us, of us hugging of us, of me, like breaking down and crying, there was something about that. And by exploring this dream, it really allowed me to feel into what, what was this trying to tell me? [24:27] I love that. I mean, I think another way to talk about what you're saying is, or a common rationalist objection is something like, it's just a story. Like you're just telling yourself a story. And... [24:39] Um, [24:40] I... [24:41] love to just take out the just in that sentence, be like, you're telling yourself a story. And sometimes you like stories and stories are good. And sometimes you don't like stories and they feel like they're fake or they don't resonate with you. But learning to tell yourself stories is incredibly valuable. And you tell yourself stories, whether you want to or not, that's just like part of the human condition, but being, being skilled at it and feeling like not only are you telling yourself stories, but maybe you're, you're tapping into some stories that was like, that's

[25:11] Now, in some other part of you that's hard to access is like an incredibly important part of... [25:17] being a human or flourishing or whatever for certain types of people. And I, that for me, like that's also been, um, [25:23] um been super valuable and important like i it's funny that you bring up a dream in a grocery store because um [25:29] I had a dream in December. [25:32] and I was in a grocery store. You said convenience store, but this is a grocery store. And I was with a... [25:39] Um, [25:41] a VC type who's someone that you and I both know. He's very hard driving. I won't say his name. Um, but I was with him. I've never actually met him. Um, I was with him and we both had, uh, [25:52] We both had grocery carts. [25:54] and we were getting stuff together for some event we were going to, and he was going and putting a bunch of stuff in his cart. And my cart was empty, and I was like... [26:04] Telling him about every and very excited to tell him about every, which is an interesting and unusual thing, because I think normally in those situations, I might be a little bit like... [26:13] Um, [26:14] worried or nervous to like seem like things are going well, but I was very excited about it. But then I noticed he was putting all this stuff in his cart and I had nothing to do. Like I wasn't putting anything in my cart and I was like, Hey, like, should I, [26:26] should I go do something? Should I go like, you know, give me a list of things to get? And he was like, no, I got it. And I felt very like self-conscious about having an empty cart. [26:35] and I just spent a bunch of time talking to chat GPT about that. And, um, um,

[26:41] it was really interesting. It was so interesting because that... [26:45] Um, that feeling of, I should, I should be able to fill this up. I should be filling this up. I should be doing more work to do, do stuff to fill this up is like actually a very prevalent feeling in my life. It's not so much like my, uh, my work life. Like that's pretty, I feel like my cart's pretty full, but there's some stuff in my, in my personal life, like my dating life or whatever, where I'm like, [27:06] trying to fill up the cart and not, it's not quite working. And I feel subconscious that I have an empty cart. Um, I'm single right now. And, um, anyway, like, [27:17] What ChatGPT helped me realize is like... [27:21] Well, one is all of that. And then two, there's a way to look at an empty cart as like, I need to fill it. And then there's a way to look at it as a symbol of like... [27:32] openness and freedom and creativity. Like there's a space, right? [27:35] And spaces can be great. [27:36] So I just made January my month of the empty cart and just deleted all my dating apps. It was very good and very powerful for me. And I say all that, one, because I'm curious what you have to say about it. But two... [27:52] I think people don't, [27:54] think that smart people can't [27:57] thinking this way or feeling this way or... [28:00] whatever. And, um, [28:02] I think it's an incredibly important and valuable part of my life. And it sounds like the same is true for you. And this tool, because I don't have a regular therapist. I don't have a Jungian therapist. This tool is so good at just helping pull that stuff out. Well, and that's the thing. And I've never explored dreams. This is a relatively new phenomenon for me. But because I pay Chachi BT $20 a month, I now have access to a skilled Jungian analyst, dream analyst.

[28:32] it's a substitute. I have done dream work with a soul craft guide at an animus retreat, and that's an entirely different experience. But to be able to just jump in and do this, it's astounding. And what I found is that the images and the dreams and the metaphors [28:54] are... [28:55] scarily related to what I'm experiencing in my life. [28:59] scarily. What is the prompt you're using? Can you show us that? [29:04] Yeah, let me pull it up. So here is the full feed. So I guess I need to go all the way to the top. And I refine it over time. But I said, so this one, I clearly didn't over-engineer the prompt. So I asked for a primer on Jungian Dream analysis. I just spoke it into my mobile phone. [29:33] so wait just to scroll back up because i want to read it for people who who are listening so i wanted to start to do some dream work with you you are a union analyst and you're going to first give me a primer on dream analysis um and how to share the images that are emerging from my dream space and so basically yeah you're asking to just like write a guide um as if uh you they're a union analyst that the ai was a union analyst who had worked with jung in vienna [29:59] Yeah. And then what happens is so then, okay, here's how to share your dream. And then here's the first dream report that I got. So this one was basically like the kitchen oatmeal and a specific request. And then I had a second dream that first night, I suppose. And I said, okay, thank you.

[30:23] I want a more comprehensive dream analysis for the kitchen dream, along with a guide for integration and reflection. And then I basically am instructing to really zero in on it. So now I'm getting kind of a more high fidelity, um, uh, [30:43] report on the dream and the different images within that one specific dream. So then I'm getting integration prompts and reflections. Now it's starting to bring in the active imagination exercises. And then you get kind of a pivotal thoughts. And then you can see my response. I'm like, wow, this is so helpful. My mind is kind of blown right now. [31:13] with this tension between creating downshift, which is requiring a lot more of my time, and it's cutting into time for all these other things. So it's... [31:27] And so what's then happened is as I've gone down into the thread, I'm now asking it to actually summarize my dream and edit it. So anyhow, that's basically, and so I evolve the prompt as I go deeper into the exploration because I'm getting a better sense as to what's really speaking to me. That's interesting.

[31:57] So like each sort of frame of the dream you like... [32:00] say all of your different associations with different things in the dream and that's sort of how it [32:05] starts to help you connect it to like your actual life. Have you ever done anything like that? [32:10] Um, not, not yet, but that, that's, that's where I'm, I'm, I'm definitely heading in that direction, but something else I can show you that I did. Um, I had this really crazy medicine journey here. Let me, let me pull this up. Um, so I had this really crazy medicine journey in, uh, November. Um, so let me share my screen. Medicine. We're talking about like, uh, psilocybin, [32:40] So this was basically a trip report. So the day after I journaled for probably an hour and a half. And this basically summarizes that journal. [32:54] Again, I just voice to text using my phone. And then what happened is it gave me sort of integration and next steps. [33:08] So I'm like, okay, this is how I'm integrating the practice. So here it's like, okay, like the big themes is around being of service to my family, deeply loving my life, honoring my body as a vessel of life, surrendering ownership and control, strengthening connection to my daughters.

[33:38] bonds in a very different voice and what are the different energies. And so now you're seeing like different archetypes coming up here. It's like the servant, the lover, oneness with nature, death and grief is gateways. And then here are the points that I love, like integration practices. So what started to happen from this was like, okay, here are different experiments. And what, [34:08] kind of come out of this was an e i had an ego death in that in that journey and so what happened is is i designed using chat gpt a fire ceremony where it was december 13th in like 25 degree weather and it was a second solo medicine journey that i that i i effectively planned [34:38] run a show that I ended up burning at the beginning of the ceremony to basically just be with the medicine and let it do its work. But what happened is, is it was this whole amazing where I basically walked in with my VC clothing, like an old outfit that I used to wear. And I literally stripped down naked, burned it, put on basically a robe, and then had this crazy experience, like huge emotional

[35:08] release. And then what happened is, is I then read my journal entry back and it gave me, you know, all of these themes like release and transformation, the images that I sat with, Eros and life force, communing with the elements, and then more integration. And [35:31] So then like, how do I continue to deepen this experience? And so I guess that the point that I'm getting at with all of this is what I'm starting to realize is that it's, [35:45] AI is like the ultimate integrator. [35:49] of these peak experiences of these rich experiences. And it helps us deepen in ways that we wouldn't have been able to before. And that's what blows my mind. It's like the, the, the speed in the depth at which I'm, [36:07] I'm growing. [36:09] And I think what I'm starting to realize just through this imagery work with medicine, dreams, again, the old me would have been like, dude, you're woo-woo. You're going crazy. And what I'm realizing is that AI has a real opportunity to dramatically expand consciousness of people. [36:29] I agree. I want to do something with you that I think you'll like. So one of the earliest... [36:36] things I did in this realm is I started using ChatGPT to visualize my dreams.

[36:43] and then I built a little like text bot where you could text it and you know send it your dream and it would send you an image back I would love to do that with you the text bot's not working anymore but do you want to pick a dream or something from your journey that you want to see and let's throw it into ChatGPT and see what it looks like [37:00] Yeah, let's do it. All right. So here we are. We're back. [37:04] Um... [37:06] Okay, so I'm going to take your dream. I'm going to throw it in here. [37:10] into ChatGPT. And we could start with 4.0. Actually, I haven't done image generation in ChatGPT in a long time. [37:19] And I'm going to... [37:24] do this. Oops, stop. Okay. And I'm going to say... [37:30] Uh... [37:32] This is a dream my friend Steve had. I want to visualize... [37:41] I want to visualize it specifically. [37:44] I want to see the ski mask on the mountain. Um, [37:51] Make it dreamy. [37:52] and ethereal and... [37:56] highly saturated. [37:59] All right, let's see what it does. [38:02] Thank you. [38:10] Whoa. Wow. Wow. What do you think? I love it. Does it, uh, does it capture what you saw or would you want modifications?

[38:23] Um, [38:24] softer color tones. [38:30] Also, the mountain looked more like Mount Rainier than something that's that rugged. [38:40] And was it this big? Was it like coming out like this? It was like it was in the snow. I sort of... [38:48] stumbled upon it. So it wasn't on top. It was like, I sort of, yeah. Let's see. Let's see if I can do it. So I said, can we do softer color tones? The mountain looked more like Mount Rainier and the mask was in the snow. Like you could stumble upon it. [39:05] No. Not right. But, but it, you know, it's, I, I think the first one definitely had more of an emotional reaction. It got you somewhere, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, let me just see, cause I think I could, uh, [39:20] Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch. [39:22] What happened here? [39:24] This is a dream. The mountain... [39:29] looked like Mount Rainier. [39:32] soft color tones. [39:35] and I want it to be, like what I'm thinking is sort of like a close-up of it in the snow. Yeah, yeah. [39:43] Great. [39:46] Thank you. [39:47] All right. So we may not get mountain. We may not get actual mountain vibes if it's a close-up, but... It's okay. Okay.

[40:08] It just loves this. I know. I know. I love it. All right. Well, at least the first one, the first one you did like, which is which is pretty cool. Yeah, definitely had a visceral reaction. And I think that that is like so interesting. Sometimes you get that and it's really cool. Like I have this whole thing. [40:31] Like my phone background, which I can't show you because I'm using my phone as a camera. But one of the archetypes that I'm really into is Hermes and as like a sort of liminal boundary crossing God. And in particular, like one of the manifestations that I like is twilight, like the time of day, not the book. And so I just have a bunch of visualizations of twilight that I like use as my phone background. And it's really cool. I love it. [40:58] Yeah. And there's something about Hermes that really speaks to you, right? Like what it represents. And I think that's the power of the imaginal realm is that it allows us to connect to these archetypes, these images, these symbols that are deeply embedded in us. And that it really is able to unlock a whole dimension of being when we allow ourselves to go there. [41:25] Totally. Any other any other AI use cases you're excited to share? [41:31] Um, what else would be fun to share? I mean, there's, there's so many of them. Um, I mean, what one that I've been doing, and this is a little obvious, um, is,

[41:45] Uh, let's see which one would be. So this one was actually really interesting. It's, it's along the lines of continuing to deepen my soul craft work. So, um, here, let me share my screen. So I recently as part of the soul craft work, they have something that's called a, um, [42:04] a, a Mandalora, which think of it as like inter interlocking circles where you explore different parts of your psyche. So it could be the part of you that longs to, to rest and your achiever, or it could be the part of you that's afraid to make a really big decision. And the part of you that wants to, that like wants to move forward. Those are just two examples. And so what I did [42:34] In the soul craft, this isn't going to make a lot of sense to your audience unless they've explored some of the work of Animus. But basically, my soul is named Fire Snail, which is this fiery, creative, slow, patient, moving sort of... [42:52] deeply embedded urge within myself. And in a lot of the times it's in opposition of my achiever. And so I had this awesome session with a guide where we talked about different practices. And one was he's like, can you have your soul, fire snail, face off against your achiever? And so what I did is I recorded in my room, I set up a speaker and I divided it in two.

[43:22] achiever or I embodied the achiever. And then I embodied my soul. And then I sat in the middle of it and let the tension of the two kind of work its magic on me. And this is literally exactly what I said as I was going through it. And I'm in the most unenlightened state when I'm in my achiever. And it's like, let's go. Let's fucking go. There's no time to waste. And I just leaned [43:52] it. And I had this whole output of this experience of exploring the deep internal stories and beliefs of my achiever. And then what I did is I then sat down, I started to take some breaths, and then I went into what does it feel like to be my most embodied, spacious, patient version of [44:22] The point that I'm getting at as I go through all this is like the depth at which you're now able to explore your psyche is like unlike anything. And now this is like what happened when I was holding in the tension where I was sitting in between and realizing like, oh, actually, the achiever isn't bad. It's just like when it's driving and it's not being led by anything.

[44:52] Actually, what happens when that because the achiever is all ego. So what happens when the when the achiever, the ego is in service of the soul? [45:04] And that was like a really groundbreaking realization that I had through this exploration. [45:11] What do you feel like when you're in your Achiever? I think the, and I should say that this came out of core wound work that I did also with ChatGPT, where I basically did a deep, deep dive into my core wound, which is basically the wound of unworthiness. That like nothing is ever going to be enough. Yeah. [45:35] I'm not enough. The things I do aren't enough. I can't measure up. And so what happened was, is what I ultimately realized is that I had my core wound that formed when I was really young. This is predominantly the paternal wound, the wound that I got from my father. And springing up outside, like coming up from that wound was my achiever and a bunch of different [46:05] me forward, not being able to sit still, always having to prove myself, not feeling enough or worthy. And that's a variety if you're using like internal family systems, like a number of, um, managers and exiles. Um, so I was able to, even before I got to that, the way I got to that was

[46:35] Even how it's just unfolding where it's like a new door opens and I'm like, oh, I did not expect that this was the door I'm opening. And I go through it and it's like, okay, I'm going to go through and I'm going to go deeper into it. [46:48] Yeah, I think that one of the really cool things that you're using this for is... [46:54] And it's one of the things that is so hard about working with actual people [46:59] Humans? [47:00] is different people have different specialties. [47:04] and different perspectives and often you just end up like matched with someone like if you're doing coaching or therapy or whatever you just end up matched with someone that like has some perspective that who knows if that's exactly like the right thing for you you know and what i love about what you're doing and i think is just generally like a strength of these models is you can go through every conceivable modality and discover different modalities and different viewpoints um [47:29] really quickly to find stuff that like actually resonates with you. And then if you really like it, you can go find an actual practitioner. Well, and that's what I'm doing. Like I'm studying Hakomi right now. I'm in, I'm in a two-year training with, with the Institute and I'm working with an incredible Hakomi therapist. I mean, she's, she's phenomenal. And I asked her permission. I'm like, can I record these sessions? And so what I'll do is I will, um, I will, I've [47:59] custom prompt to record our sessions and spit out basically an output that then becomes the integration point. So the thing that I'm really getting excited about, and I use this in my coaching practice as well, where I have custom prompts for my clients, is that I'm really

[48:17] And then I share the notes with them. And to me, the magic is this, is that you get the notes, you get the download, and then that becomes the integration point. [48:27] The in-between and the depth that I'm now able to go. Like I think about when I got sober a decade ago, I would go to therapy. I'd have a conversation. I'd be like, see you later. And an hour later, I totally forget what we talked about. [48:41] Yeah. [48:42] Now I have like a high fidelity, um, [48:46] Mwah! [48:47] snapshot of the conversation. Yeah. It's so hard to make progress if [48:56] It's like once a week and the once a week is the only time you're thinking about it. [49:01] And [49:02] having a little... [49:05] record and buddy that can kind of like [49:07] push you in the right ways, [49:09] in between is amazing. Yeah. And, and I, and I think there's something that I want to touch on because you, I think I'm, I actually decided to leave Twitter over the weekend, but before I, I departed, I saw a tweet from you about, um, voice interfaces. And I had this major realization [49:39] ADD when I was a kid and I was like, Oh, I'm totally over ADD. Like I've, I've, I've, [49:45] meditation and I'm like enlightened now, obviously joking. And, but she's like, I want you to read this book. It's come recommended. And I had this epiphany where I'm like, Oh, this is the way my brain works.

[49:58] I thought that my brain was broken, but I realized that it processes differently. And so one of the ways in which my ADD shows up is if I try to type something, my mind moves so much faster than I can type that then I lose my train of thought, I get frustrated. And what I've begun to realize is voice is actually, for me, such a natural interface that... [50:26] It allows me to process at the speed of thought now because I don't have to type. And it's just unlocked so much more for me. [50:36] And, and, and so I think like, there's also, we talk about this exploration of, of, um, of, of consciousness, but I also think that these tools can really help those that are neurodivergent in certain ways to be able to process in a way that feels more natural. [51:06] is not a category that people get help for. Everyone's coding now, right? And a lot of the people that are vibe coding, maybe they just didn't really have a lot of patience for the building block abstractions of programming. But now that you don't really need to worry about what an if statement is as much, they can code. [51:27] Like it fills in all of those gaps and it, and like you're saying, it unlocks all this stuff. Or like, even for me, like I fell off my scooter in Panama.

[51:36] And so my wrist is all messed up and I can't type, but I'm, [51:40] talking, [51:42] to write now. And like... [51:45] it's really interesting because I feel like I'm cheating. It's so much easier to write in certain ways. It's so much easier. It's so much easier. It's so much easier. And also my writing is different. My writing voice when I'm speaking is different from my writing voice when I'm typing. And I actually like the vocal quality of it. And so it's an interesting thing to try to lean into a little bit stylistically. So it's very cool. [52:15] Thank you. [52:15] Hearing you really lean into writing, that lit me up because as I've been thinking about the next iteration of downshift, I'm like, that's all I want to do. [52:25] I will still, and I still work with Rachel as my editor. Oh, amazing. Yeah. So I work with, I use ChatGPT in certain ways. I still work with a human editor, but I will often write the outline and the first draft handwritten. I love handwritten because it's so unfiltered. And then what I'll do is I'll read it. [52:50] Out loud. [52:51] And then I'll fill in gaps as I'm reading it. And it becomes this like organic process where it's like, I've written by hand, slow process. Then I get into this flow as I'm reading it out loud and adding and adjusting and, and then instructing. And then I get a high fidelity first draft that is so great that then I share with Rachel and then that kicks off the process. Yeah.

[53:18] That's very cool. That's very cool. [53:20] Um, [53:21] I'm excited to see what you write. [53:23] Yeah, well, you should check out my last few pieces. They've been great. I will do that. Yeah. Well, this has been amazing. Expected but unexpected, the wild and weird places we went in this conversation. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing with us. And for people who want to learn more about you and about your work and about Downshift, where can they find you? [53:46] Yeah, they can find me at schlaf.co, S-C-H-L-A-F.co, or the work that we're doing at Downshift at downshift.me. [53:58] Amazing. Thanks for coming on. Yeah. And one last point, I do believe that the coaching and the therapy world is going to get so massively disrupted from AI. I think there's still going to be human to human experiences, but it's going to be a highly premium product and it's going to be much more experiential. [54:27] Which is what it kind of started as. And then we were like, well, we have to kind of [54:32] make it broadly available and then we have to manualize it and what, and, and then all that didn't really work. Um, and yeah, I think that, yeah, I agree with you. So, so it's going to be fascinating to see how this all unfolds, but it's, it's going to be profound. It's, it's really going to be profound. Well, I'm excited.

[54:50] Yeah, this was fun. [54:59] Oh my gosh, folks, you absolutely positively have to smash that like button and subscribe to AI and I. Why? Because this show is the epitome of awesomeness. It's like finding a treasure chest in your backyard, but instead of gold, it's filled with pure unadulterated knowledge bombs about chat GPT. Every episode is a roller coaster of emotions, insights and laughter that will leave you on the edge of your seat. [55:23] craving for more. It's not just a show. It's a journey into the future with Dan Shipper as the captain of the spaceship. [55:30] So do yourself a favor, hit like, smash subscribe, and strap in for the ride of your life. [55:36] And now, without any further ado, let me just say, Dan, I'm absolutely hopelessly in love with you.