Ep 131: Life Advice with Kara Swisher. On Burn Book, Embracing The Randomness of Life, Money, Being an Entrepreneur and Having Kids

[00:01] Welcome to the Feelings Check-In, a feelings first look at the news of the week. Takes no one asked for on topics everyone's talking about. I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. [00:19] Just boy stuff. [00:20] Hi. Hey. [00:21] Big, big, big, big, big interview today. Our biggest one yet. My propanol just kicked in. [00:31] We just finished the interview, so. You were super relaxed at the end. I was just like, hey, babe. Okay, so who do we have on? Do you know? We had Kara Swisher on the pod. [00:43] And... [00:44] Honestly, we've been looking forward to this interview for weeks. It took some weeks to get scheduled and we have been nonstop thinking about it, talking about it. What would Kara Swisher do in every situation that we've been in over the past couple weeks now? So she's come on to talk about her book, Burn Book, which is our third book. We'll talk about that in the interview. But I think part of why it's felt so meaningful for us is being... [01:07] because [01:08] I don't want to say she paved... [01:10] the way feels trite in some ways, but there's so much about what she has done and what she has accomplished and what she stands for in not caring about... [01:21] Thank you. [01:23] man in power. Like there's a, there's a irreverence that she has that, [01:30] I personally very much aspire to and I think infuses the ethos of Boys Club.

[01:34] and... [01:36] So it's just a big deal. [01:38] to talk to her. Yeah, I think... [01:40] She, if you don't know who she is, she's... [01:42] That's crazy. And just Google for real. But she's one of the most legendary tech reporters, started her career 30 years ago at the burgeoning of the Internet, was one of the first people writing about it, thinking critically about it, and has basically any powerful person on speed dial and really, really well respected over a very long career and very entrepreneurial. [02:12] many businesses, many media businesses over and over and over again. And a real inspiration to me personally, and I know you as someone who has been [02:23] been able to stand in the face of very powerful men, very powerful people and be direct and speak truthfully and share with the world what is most important and what is happening. And that is hard to do. And I think I feel challenged by it every day. And she seems to do it seamlessly and without thought. And yeah, it's something I aspire to. So there's a lot of great stuff in this interview. We talk about her book, we talk about her career, we talk about what she would say to people in [02:53] And we had talked to her about crypto, which she doesn't think about. So that was warm. Yeah, it's the, you know, the mad men meme where it's two guys in the elevator and he's like, Don Draper says, I don't think about you at all. Yeah, that's exactly what it was, which was fine. Totally fine. All good. But thank you to Kara Swisher and her team for doing this. It was one for the books. For sure. Hey, Natasha. So a question we get asked a lot is, what do you look for in a crypto platform? So let's talk about it.

[03:23] Well, Dina, I look for a secure, no fuss platform that I can dive into right away. That's why I love today's sponsor, Kraken. If you're waiting for the right time to get into crypto, Kraken makes it super easy and intuitive to get started. Plus, if you get stuck, they have an award-winning client support team that's available 24-7, along with a bunch of educational guides, articles, and videos to help you along the way. If you're ready to check out the simple, secure way to trade crypto, go to kraken.com backslash boys club and see what crypto can be. [03:53] loss. Cryptocurrency services are provided to U.S. and U.S. territory customers by Payward Ventures Incorporated, PBI, DBA, Kraken. View PVI's disclosure at kraken.com backslash legal backslash disclosures. [04:09] So today on the show, we have Kara Swisher. Kara Swisher, [04:13] legendary tech reporter and media entrepreneur. She's of New York Magazine, former New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post. We're here talking about Burn Book, her third book, chronicling a career in truth telling around tech's most powerful players. Kara, we're so, deeply honored to have you. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. I'm actually in San Francisco right now. I'm at my house in San Francisco. Yeah. [04:38] You're at the center of it all, the center of the story. As Gina said, we're so honored to have you. I absolutely loved your book. It was amazing. Thank you. It's so great. And a little tidbit, I was reading your book a few weeks ago, and I live in New York City, and lived here 13 years. I've been stopped on the subway twice when I was reading a book to talk about the book. The first time was A Little Life, and I was, like, crying. And someone was like, it's so good. I cried, too.

[05:08] reading your book. And this dude stopped me and he was like, is it as good as everybody says it is? And I was like, it's better. Oh, wow. That's great. Yeah. We have a lot of fans. It also has to do with the podcasts and everything else, but we get, I guess it's both Scott and I, Scott's about to come out with a book, Galloway. Um, and we get stopped a lot. I really appreciate the fans. We've been doing a big book tour for, uh, I have been, uh, for Burn Book. Um, and it's been great to meet all the, they're sold out events that we're doing. Um, but what's great is the signing [05:38] It's such a diverse crowd of people. And it's been really gratifying to meet people who are affected by it in some way. [05:46] Great. Yeah, it's been it's been fun to read and to bond with people over it. And for Dean and I, you are the reverend mother of what we're doing at Boys Club. And we often ask ourselves, what would Kara Swisher do? And one of the things that you're so amazing at is you're you're direct and you're straightforward. And you're no bullshit. But people are still willing to pick up the phone for you and willing to talk to you about some of the most, you know, intimate and serious things that are going on in their career. [06:16] players, how have you balanced that and not had a sort of burn every bridge experience while still getting to the truth of the moment? [06:23] Yeah, I don't think... I think one of the things that people misconstrue about me is I'm mean to them. I'm not. I think people do that with women because it's sexist to say... People are always surprised when they meet me because they're like, oh, you're actually nice. I'm like, why wouldn't I be? I only... [06:37] I mean when I need to be and I don't I don't like the term mean because I don't think I mean and so I can be firm and that's different but often with women if you're firm you're bossy or mean or bitch or whatever or the other

[06:50] Legions of words. I love to use to denigrate women and and I just say what I think in a way that I think is very clear and a lot of people are [07:00] are like, "Oh, well, she's right." Right? What she's saying to me is truthful, and I really do find telling the truth tends to work a lot better for me. If I have to sort of make things up, I have to remember what I made up, and I'm not very good at that. And so it's often better just to say what you think. And I think a lot, most people, and I'm not saying all people, because there's all these narcissists that can't stand it, these toxic narcissists, they're much better off when you say what you think. And then they're relieved because you're not being, you know, you're not being [07:29] dishonest with them and you're asking the direct question that's already on their mind. And so I think they keep talking to me because it's interesting to them because they get some insight themselves about themselves or something they didn't know. I think that's one thing. I'm thinking of an interview I did last year, I guess, with Jon Stewart, where, you know, he had been struggling with Apple. This is before his recent comeback, which has been spectacular, but he'd been struggling with Apple TV and he'd left, you know, his very successful show right at [07:59] missed the Trump years. And it was very clearly he was struggling. And even though I thought that a product improved a lot, I said, I don't know, I think you've become a little irrelevant. And what do you think? And he was like, wow, well, you just said it. And I'm like, yeah, but you know what I'm saying. And he knew it, right? And so he kind of appreciated that someone said it because he was thinking about, has he become irrelevant? Why is he doing this? I said, I think

[08:29] irrelevant and that you've got to start thinking you're relevant in some fashion. Anyway, it was really interesting. And I think, you know, a lot of people, if they were super narcissistic or very sensitive, would have said, fuck you, I'm, I'm, I'm Don Stewart, whatever. But he didn't, he wanted to discuss that because I had just pointed out a truth to him that was really kind of obvious to one and all. And so I think smart, secure people don't mind it at all. And so I just do it. And the [08:54] insecure, well, fuck them. I don't care. I love that. I feel like I need to internalize that as spending so much of my life as a people pleaser and then [09:03] Yeah. Just... [09:05] And recognizing that that only gets you so far. It doesn't get you anywhere. It's different from being nice. People pleasing is a very, I think, toxic thing, right? Because you're not doing what you, I don't think you please people by not being yourself. I think you, what you do is you end up taking, diminishing yourself or taking something from you for almost no good reason, by the way. It's never for, you know, you never get anything back from it and it doesn't help you. But it is fine to be kind and polite, you know. I think that's different. [09:35] exactly say what you think at every minute of the day in our culture now, especially the internet culture, is to say [09:40] whatever you think at every moment of the day. I don't do that. Like, I don't waste... [09:45] Like I'm often like, yeah, I don't have time for that. Like I'm not going to, there's no reason to trash someone if you can just move along unless it advantages you in some way. And so I think there's a difference between being kind and polite and being a people pleaser for sure. [09:58] I deeply respect that. And I think a lot of your power comes from that relationship to other people and from your irreverence. And that's something we really aspire to at Boys Club. So in reading your book, loved it so much for anyone who hasn't who hasn't read it yet really, really recommend you went all in.

[10:18] on the internet. [10:19] early on in your career, that at the time was very much a bet. What were the moments that you felt like that that was going to pay off? [10:28] Oh, from the beginning. I saw it right away. I think I was one of the, I wasn't the earliest, there were a lot of people in it at the time, but as a reporter in the media, I certainly was by myself in a lot of ways. And I, you know, I'm a student of history and I studied media and the various uses, whether it's the Gutenberg Bible, which I just saw a copy of the other, not a copy, the actual Gutenberg Bible. There's only six in existence and there's one at the University of Texas, Austin. And it was just sitting there. I was like, oh, look, it's the Gutenberg Bible, [10:58] And... [10:59] I, it was very pretty, by the way. Um, I, I was really, um, [11:04] I just really saw it. I just was like, oh, look, a worldwide communication system. And I could... [11:10] download things, this is really important. And I, you know, I just, I think I did recognize [11:15] I had a historical background, which is sort of a plug for studying history, is I really did understand... [11:21] that this was... [11:23] It's different and the same at the same time, right? And I just stood its differences and its qualities. And so, you know, I thought, what if you do if you combine TV and radio and print and availability anywhere? It just made sense. I didn't think I was particularly smart, but apparently I was because many people didn't see it. Did you ever have moments like one of the things that we think a lot about is we love crypto, we love Web3.

[11:53] I saw this opportunity to participate in a new era of the internet. [11:58] that I didn't have an opportunity to participate in previously. And so it felt like there was this window or, and in many ways, when I was reading your book, I felt inspired by the way you were talking about the early days of the internet and my experience of sort of understanding these new rails and new technology and there being like an opening for someone like me to come in and design around it and have a belief in sort of a more open, democratized internet. I am curious what you think of Web3 and crypto and also... [12:28] I think AI is really where you should be focusing because that's the natural. You're like pivot. It's fine. I just, you know, I think blockchain is important, blah, blah, blah. It's just a tool. It's just, it's not the more interesting of the tools. That's all. I don't think, you know, what's happening with the, about AI has been around for a long time, obviously. But this sort of Cambrian explosion we are in is really where the action is as far as I'm concerned. It's the next phase of what it is. I don't think there's ever not a chance to enter. That's my feeling is just enter when you can enter. It doesn't really matter. [12:58] sitting and waiting for the wave is kind of a problem for you. You need to just get in. With crypto, I was always like, oh, digital money. Money's already digital. Okay, sure. You can do this. And a lot of, they rush to be so hypey about it, whether it was NFTs or, I don't like, I think NFTs are interesting. I'm not uninterested in it. I just think they had, because the mark of an insecure, [13:21] new industry is to say how great it is, right? And the obsession was saying how it's going to change everything. I remember that idiotic conference, it was mostly all men who do this, where Peter Thiel was like, everyone's an idiot. This is the top thing. And then of course it crashed, right? You know what I mean? Like insulting Warren Buffett. Remember when they were insulting Warren Buffett? He doesn't get it. I'm like, oh, Warren Buffett is fine. Let's just give him his props and let's let him leave the scene. Stop it. He's so good at what he does.

[13:51] You have to tear down someone who's obviously a legend. And there was no reason to do so. It was stupid. It's just insecure people do that. And so, you know, there's a lot of promise in it. It's interesting. I think AI is much more interesting, and that's all. It's just, do you find… [14:08] you know, VR more interesting, or do you find the actual inner itself more interesting? That's all. It's just, it's just, it's part of the same continuum. I do think AI is part of a continuum more than AI. [14:19] blockchain is. I think blockchain is a sidelight to it. So you had a front row seat to watching the consolidation of power by a few dudes in the tech industry over the last 30 years, and you still work in tech. I'm curious how you balance that. [14:35] having the scar tissue of having seen that. And also, you're clearly excited and optimistic and love the technology. It's changing all the time. It's a really interesting, it's still innovative. A lot of industries don't continue to innovate. Any industry at any time can innovate, you know, book publishing or media. So media is going to have to now, obviously, it's been warned, the warning signals have been going off for 20 years, but whatever, which they've ignored most of the time. You know, I'm interested in because it continues to innovate, it continues to be [15:05] something new around the corner so you're always interested in that it's like [15:09] When does Italy become uninteresting to people who are interested in food, right? Does it? My guess, sort of, maybe. You know, I just don't find, there's lots to be interested in all the time. And that's what's great. You're at this sort of, even though it's 20 years in or 30 years in, you're still at the dawn of it, right? You're really at the beginning of it.

[15:27] So there's always some cool things. At some point, it'll get more boring, I guess. But it's not. And the founders are still around, right? And that's another interesting part of it. You know, it's cool, the kind of things you can imagine. And then you move into climate change tech and healthcare tech and space and... [15:44] There's all kinds of directions it can go in that are really interesting. And then this recent new shift into AI, and we still haven't had business plans around AI yet, but I've seen that have been except for some subscription stuff. [15:59] You know, it'll be interesting to try to figure out where it's going. So that's why it remains interesting to me. [16:04] What was in your book is really this sort of falling in and out of love with tech and with the players. And I'm curious, when you... [16:13] have had moments where you have gone to bed feeling really disillusioned and really [16:17] upset by sort of how it has all played out. When you wake up the next morning, is it that excitement about what's possible that gets you like, [16:25] into the work? I'm neither disillusioned or excited. Like I don't, I'm not, these people, I don't care about them. I have four children. I have a very lovely family. I don't really, you know, that's not what disillusions and upsets me in the world. I mean, politics does behavior of people that I love, you know, and things like that. So I, you know, this is what I do for a living. It's not who I am. Right. And so, so I, I don't, I don't ever get like, oh dear,

[16:55] a constant series of inspirations in order to operate. I don't. I'm a much more, I suppose, the word you might use is cynical, but I think I'm just realistic. I have a long view of things. I have, you know, a lot of the book is about death. It's about being informed by how mortality informs a lot of things. You know, I talk about Steve Jobs in that regard. I talk about others. And so I don't ever go to bed feeling bad. I just don't. I'm just tired. But I don't like, oh, I really don't. I was... [17:25] The other day I was feeling vaguely anxious and I'm like, oh, look, I'm anxious. I haven't felt this in a decade. Like I don't even remember the last time I felt anxious. And I forget what it was about. It was stupid. What was it about? I just can't remember. It must have been something about one of my kids. But I don't feel anxious a lot. I don't. And I remember feeling I'm like, oh, this is what it feels like. Wow. I don't like it. Let's not do this anymore. You know, and it went away rather quickly because then it turned out to be something so stupid. I was like, this is dumb to be anxious about. [17:55] You know, it's sort of like feeling fear. A lot of people in this book tour are like, what are you scared of? I'm like, scary things, like otherwise not. Like, why would I be scared of things that aren't scary? And so actual scary things of which I've encountered very few in my life. [18:09] I'm scared of, but otherwise. [18:11] I'm not going to spend my time anticipating fears that aren't [18:15] happening at that moment. I saw this tweet the other day that was like, anxiety is so stupid. It's like, oh my God, what if something happens? And I was like, wow, I'm being read to filth. Yeah, right. Exactly. It's something is going to happen. I don't, I have, I've always had a long time since that you, that randomness, I am comfortable with randomness. And, you know, I think it was because my dad died just suddenly at 34, just, and is there, is there an explanation for this? No.

[18:39] Was it random? Yes. [18:40] Was it just... [18:42] just was. There was nothing to be done about it. Nothing you could stop it. Nothing you could end it. You couldn't change it. And so I think it does inform me. I have that sensibility from a young age and of that anything could happen at any time. And that's just the way it is. And I don't find it either unfair or, and I don't wallow in it. Like that kind of thing. Some people do, unfortunately, get wallow in it and they use various things with drugs or drinking or whatever to like, I just don't, I just am like, well, that, that happened. And so I, [19:11] You know, that's where I kind of try to live. [19:14] Okay, I want to talk about money. [19:16] Sure. You write a lot about it in the book, which is for listeners who haven't who haven't read it yet. You were and are continue to be so close to so much money. And you could have easily taken a different. [19:30] path. Yeah, I know you're, you're doing just fine. But does that ever come up for you? I have a lot of money. I've made a lot of money in media. So I don't money is not what motivates get to figure out what motivates you in life. It motivated me, I would certainly have taken those jobs. Yeah. You know, I Yeah, there's hundreds of millions of dollars I could have made. Like I joke speaking of [19:49] Crypto. I have 10 Bitcoin that I bought at $[redacted address] somewhere. [19:55] I don't know where it went. I was doing a story. We've got to find that. I know. It's a big joke. And everyone's like, see, she loves VicPoint. I'm like, no, I was doing a story and I had to try it. Like, you know what I mean? And so I bought, I don't know, it's $500 worth of it. Wences Casares. Actually, you know, those kind of crypto really work well. I was just in Argentina visiting my oldest son. And that's where it all started. Wences Casares was one of the first people who did it with Zappo. And I did a story about it at the time that he started it.

[20:25] And that makes sense to me in those countries where that makes sense to have a different kind of currency. That's total use case, essentially. But yeah, I could have made money. I don't know. I just would have had to work for them. I just was like, I guess my personal happiness is more important than money if I have enough of it. And, you know, there's all these studies show if you reach a certain level, you don't really want more money. You don't want more choice. You don't want... [20:50] You just don't want it. The only reason I would like to have more money now, a lot more, would be to affect political races because that's where money is what counts in political races. And so I'd like to sort of, you know, tap out George Soros and be like, now I'm going to fuck with you, Donald Trump, in a big way. Just constantly fuck with you because I have so much money. I would like that. I would like that. And I would be very explicit about it. I'd be like, I'm going to fuck with you today and I'm going to use my enormous sums of money. [21:20] Oh, well, I missed that boat, so. [21:23] That's the brakes. We have a lot of founders, builders who listen to this podcast. I would love to hear from you. What are some things that today's founders can learn from early founders of the internet? Maybe not like the social media dudes, but like Web1, Netscape, Yahoo, that whole era. You know, it's interesting. I just finished early this morning. I did a podcast with Jim Lanzone, who's now running Yahoo. He's trying to revive it and doing a pretty good job. Actually, it's doing it's actually makes a lot of money. Yeah, who does? People don't realize it still [21:53] Now his AOL lumped in there. He's got a lot of properties. And we were very early. We were both, you know, I was in the 90s. We both started. And we were talking about returning to the good internet. There was a good internet. And there was an internet that was really interesting among entrepreneurs. And we were having a little moment that was true. There's a lot to be said for a safe internet, something that is useful to you, that doesn't make your life more anxious. It makes your life easier. And those are the good parts of technology.

[22:23] to jerry yang this week also uh who started yahoo itself because i was talking for this [22:27] podcast I was doing. And, you know, there was a lot to be said about what they were like. They were much more interested in the products. And I think anything I tell entrepreneurs, one of the things that did get lost is two things. One is they were very honest. Not all of them. A lot of them went on and on about how they wanted to change the world where I thought they just wanted to make money, which is what was the case. Just be honest about what you're doing, right? [22:52] And don't romanticize it. Don't make it into a religion. Don't make it... It's just like you're no better than a banker or a person who's making Twinkies. You're just not. Like stop trying to make this into some special little... [23:05] animal or some sort of magical unicorn situation. You're just doing capitalism. Try to do it better than other people. I think a lot of focus on the product is something I think about a lot. I think a lot of the people I really like are focused on the product. What are you making that is good? And what's the value? And that's how I do everything I do in media. It's like, what's my product? And why is it good for people? Do I enjoy making it? And is it actually good? And I think [23:35] happens to be. As an entrepreneur, that's what you should be focused on. Everything else is just bullshit. Everything else around it, the money, the this and that. That'll come if you make a great product and you don't act like a giant... well, you can act like a giant asshole and still make a lot of money from obvious. You've seen that happen. So I think it's really important to think really hard about what you're actually making.

[23:56] Don't be fussy about it. Like, what are you making and what is your positive? And then be very willing to change it based on... [24:03] actual events. See what you believe. I have a saying that I say to my kids a lot, which they ignore me, but it's true, is, you know, believe what you see, don't see what you believe. [24:16] So I often try to believe what I see. [24:18] - Yeah. [24:19] What are some of those products and founders that you think are doing good work right now? [24:24] Oh, yeah. I've always liked Airbnb. I think it's a useful, good product. I think they've iterated over the years. I think it's a tough business. They've made a lot of mistakes, which I'm fine with. I'm also fine with people making mistakes, but at least making mistakes and moving on quickly. She was talking to the woman who's running NBC, and they had that Ronna McDonnell disaster, and everyone was sort of trashing them, and they deserved it for a bad decision. [24:54] And so I was saying to her, she was like, oh, you're going to give me a hard time. I'm like, no, you look a stupid decision, but well, you know that I don't have to tell you that. But what you did is moved on, right? You did, you did something about it. And so a lot of people just stick to their guns on stupidity quite a lot. Um, yeah. [25:11] You know, I just think like Airbnb is a good example that they had a lot of errors, but then they make a good product. Like I like it. I use it. I like to pay attention. Like all the Apple products, they're really good. They're just good. They use, they help me. I don't have negative feelings about them. They're, you know, it's like, I don't see, I don't think of them as more or less than say my Chevy Bolt, which I love. I mean, I love my Chevy. It's a good product. Gets me where I want to go. I enjoy it. It's well done. Well done, GM kind of thing.

[25:41] I'm trying to think, you know, Snapchat does a great job. I'm trying to think of different products I use. Apple always does. What are things I use a lot lately? I like threads. I can't believe it, but I like threads. I find it useful for me. [25:53] You, I listened to the Sam Altman interview a couple weeks back and you guys seem to have a really great rapport. We do. And it seems like you liked each other. And yeah, curious what you think of him, OpenAI.com. [26:07] Well, you know, Sam's still a very aggressive entrepreneur. Let's just like, people are always like, well, he's not so nice. I'm like, I didn't say he was nice. I wasn't like... [26:16] Okay, sure, yeah. But he wouldn't have gotten this far if he wasn't, you know, a tough fucking customer. That's not a negative in my opinion. [26:24] it's how you, you know, does he treat people well? Obviously, he had some issues with part of some of his board members. And if you went and really did the reporting on that, it's probably the answer somewhere in the middle. He acted sneaky. They were kind of crazy or they did, you know, they were highly emotional, looked like about things. And, you know, everybody's, it was just a power play. I just, okay, like, got it. Like, nobody's, [26:48] sweet in that. There's no hero in those kind of scenarios. Yeah. I do think he's more thoughtful than most people. At least he's, he, at least, [26:55] says things that are thoughtful. Actually, I've known him since he was 19. He is thoughtful. He's always been thoughtful. You can't fake it that long, right? You can't fake thoughtfulness that long. And I think he's kind of in a weird situation where they're trying to make him into the expert of everything. And I think he's trying to resist it a little bit. They're trying to make him perfection. And when he doesn't square up with perfection, they're going to get him, right?

[27:25] business out of it. He's got a million challenges, lawsuits, et cetera. And I hope he's smarter than the other people about dealing with them. Copyright is a big issue and not [27:36] I don't agree with him on that, the stuff they're doing. And, you know, we'll see if he can meet the challenge and do it, you know. [27:43] Well, he's made some very canny investments, you know, in a lot of things over the years. And he's made some mistakes. So, you know, and he actually owns up to them. So it's a pleasure to talk to anyone who at least... Same thing with Mark Cuban is another person who has changed. And I like anyone who progresses. Mark has progressed. Evan Spiegel has progressed. Brian was always a nice guy who runs Airbnb. But I prefer people who progress. I don't expect perfection. [28:13] someone who needs to progress and he does. Right. So, you know, I think people, it's interesting on the, when I, people come up to me and they're like, Oh, how can you deal with them? I'm like, [28:23] just fucking lighten up. Like, because I lighten up, like, I'm not expecting him to be [28:27] Not my daddy. He's not my, you know, he's not my savior. He's a flawed person like I am. And he has a journey. We're on a journey. So I'm kind of much more forgiving than most. Everyone today needs to like have a stance and I don't need to have a stance on everyone. I think people are a work in progress for the most part, unless they're jerks and then they're just jerks. When the facts change, we get to change our minds. So yeah, we do. I think some people I think are

[28:57] He doesn't seem any interest in fixing himself or trying to be better. So, you know, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. It's time for a more open, inclusive and transparent financial system, a system that serves nearly everyone everywhere all the time. That's why we love today's sponsor, Kraken. Kraken is a crypto platform that provides a super simple on-ramp to the world of crypto with a 24-7 support team. Crypto transcends physical and imaginary borders. No matter where you are, you can send funds easily and quickly to almost any part of the world. [29:27] waiting times and waiting lines you can send receive and trade crypto anywhere near instantly see what crypto can be at kraken.com backslash boys club non-investment advice crypto trading involves risk of loss transfers to a third party are not available on kraken cryptocurrency services are provided to us and us territory customers by payward ventures inc pvi dba kraken view pvi's disclosures at kraken.com backslash legal backslash disclosures okay i want to end [29:57] in the time we've left, I want to start with, [30:00] The future of media? Well, we have you here. I wrote a whole book on this. You know, I have that excerpt in New York Magazine. You can go read it there. I talk about it rather in detail. [30:12] But go ahead. If you were starting out today, what would you do? [30:16] Thank you. [30:17] You know, I think I'm really heartened by a lot of these smaller things that are sort of, they've been done in the footprint of what we did at All Things D. Like a lot of stuff we did... [30:26] there was this, what's happening now. We really did see that early, Walt and I, you know, creating these smaller, you know, what is puck but not all things D, right? What is the information? It happens to be a subscription version of what we did. And she's done all kinds of innovation, Jessica Lesson, who's terrific too. But, you know, we had a lot of those things as the idea of a smaller, more economically viable unit. I think one of the things that the news people don't get is that it's called the news business and let's focus on business. Like they

[30:56] can't be viable if you don't have a business. And then news people are like, but we're, you know, we're like priests. I'm like, you're not like priests, you're a business. Like, stop it. Like, if you don't have money, [31:05] You either have to, one, make it a charity, which is not a great thing to have to do. That means you're always trying to raise money from the kindness of strangers. The other one is you get a billionaire to pay for it, and then you're at the behest of a billionaire, the kindness of a billionaire who could turn. It's just a bad – I was offered a job by one of these billionaires to run a media company. I'm like, you know what, I like you now, and I don't feel like hating you later. [31:29] So how about we don't go down this road? And they're like, but, but, but. I'm like, I just don't have the time to fight with you in three years, which is where it's going to go. I don't want to fight with you in three years. I like you. I don't want to dislike you. [31:41] Let's just [31:42] Let's just let that one go, let the pitch go by. [31:48] the things that I talk to people, you've got to have a viable, the costs have to meet revenues, period. That's it. You have to have a viable business plan. And that means being smaller and more innovative in how you deliver stuff or more clever about how you do it. You know, I have pared down my numbers over there. I have literally three people working on each podcast. It's very lucrative because of that. And so I'm very cognizant. I don't think I have a calling. I just think I'm making a product and I'm making a good product. And that's why people are buying [32:18] I think people, I'm a little less romantic about media than media people are. I also, I'm not a bellyaker. One of the things I tried to do was when I was in situations in the media, there's nothing worse than a media newsroom bellyaching. I'm like, oh God, do I have time? Again, I got kids. I got things to do. What do you mean by that? What do you mean by bellyaching? Well, it's just like, I don't like my bosses. They're not doing it right. You know, that whole thing. You know, I'm like, I don't have time for this. I don't want to, I don't.

[32:42] If I'm unhappy somewhere, instead of spending years talking about how unhappy I was, I'd rather just leave and do my own thing. And so I'm one of these people who recognized super early in my career that I wasn't interested. If I didn't like someone and what they were doing, leaving is a really good thing. Like, I can go. I'm an educated person. [33:00] woman in America, like as difficult as it is for women in America, it's a whole lot easier than a lot of places. Like I really do have advantages. And so not certainly not enough. And there's a lot of unfairness. But compared to much of the world, I have choices. And so I've always thrived in the idea that we have choices, right. And a lot of times, [33:18] Um, [33:20] You know, being gay was a hindrance. You know, people treated me differently. And I wasn't able to become the spy I wanted to become. I wanted to be in the military. I wasn't able to do that. When I'm going to sit around my whole life going, oh, no, I couldn't do it. Do something else and I'll go this way. I think you need to conduct your life like water. Water is really, it goes where it goes. If it doesn't find, if something gets us away, it goes another way. That's how I look at it. Instead of sitting there and saying, [33:49] I'm just not a fester. And so I think media has to think like that. What is the business? And by the way, if you make real, like think about the music business. It was on the ropes. Now it's doing really well because they started to stop resisting and started to innovate. Same thing with media. There's all kinds of really cool little media companies. You've got the New York Times doing all kinds of innovation. They make, most of their growth has not been in the news. It's been in other things. And when that, there was a chart out, it was really interesting for the New York Times. And it said, you know,

[34:18] You know, news is pretty much holding steady, which is a very good thing in this era, by the way. And their games and their athletic and a bunch of other things about it had been growing. And all these people are like, oh, that's just terrible. I'm like, what the fuck is terrible about that? Like their news is steady and they're growing other things. Well, that means they're not a news company. I go, can you see the news? They're holding steady. What are you? They're fantastic. [34:39] Stop it. Like, stop it. Like, it's okay for them to, Wordle to be good. Like, just leave it alone. People like the frigging Wordle. And it's a daily habit and it brings them in if it gets young people to read. [34:50] All the better. But like, stop it. Like, stop. [34:54] I don't know, people really get in their own way. And so I think the media business has got to take itself a lot less seriously and start to enjoy what they're doing and have fun doing it. And the ones I see having fun doing it and doing interesting things are doing really well. And then when it doesn't work... [35:11] Get out of town. Like, okay. And acknowledge very quickly it didn't work. And one of the reasons I sold all things D is because I knew the jig was up on these valuations and other people were trying to hire my reporters for incredible amounts of money. And I was like, this is unsustainable. I need to sell. [35:27] And everyone's like, you can't do that. I'm like, oh, I'm selling because I know what's coming. Like I had an idea. It was going to drop. That's the only way it was going to go. And then even starting the podcast, which we're doing right now, I started this 10 years ago. And it's because I was like, oh, this is the direction I think things are, this is my guess of the direction things are going in. I went to Jim Bankoff, who's head of Vox Media. I said, I know you just bought my company for tens of millions of dollars, but I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm going to do this podcast. And I need one guy.

[35:57] and we're going to go off and do it. It's going to be great. [36:00] One of the great things about Jim MacCoff is he said, "Okay, [36:03] Sounds good. He trusted me, right? It's turned into a very large division of Vox. It's $100 million, whatever. It's a really big business for Vox. Well, because I wanted to make something good, right? And they also believed it and then saw how they could do it and became really good. It's one of the top podcast networks, right? [36:22] I think you have to be willing to do things like that. And I do that all the time with my career. And if I'd say anything, especially young people, you can change yourself at any moment in your career. I'm not young. I am 61 years old. And I have a new thing I'm going to do now. I'm like, huh, this is interesting. And I don't mind leaving behind successful things. I'm still going to do podcasts. It's not an announcement of me getting on a podcast. But I love them. I think they're really good businesses. And they're going to be very big businesses for a long time, [36:52] least for me. But I'm always like, huh, that's interesting. I think I'd like to try that. And I think you can do that at any age. And most of my success came after I was in my 40s, most of my big successes. I was very successful traditionally before that, but most of my entrepreneurial successes. So you don't have to be young. You don't have to... [37:12] You can be any age from any place and for most places, at least in this country, and be successful at it. And you shouldn't, you know, I bemoan all the time the lack of females in positions of power. [37:24] You know, I bemoan the fact that it's such a ridiculously stupid way that diversity, equity, and inclusion has been so pilloried. Because the opposite of diversity, equity, and inclusion is...

[37:35] homogeneity, [37:38] unfairness and exclusion. That's a real winner for our country. So like I'm on that, but at the same time, well then go off and make something of your own that you can then have your values, right? [37:49] Don't leave yourselves in a position where you're at the behest of other people so you can make what you want. And anybody can make anything. You know, that's how I look at it. [37:58] Wow. Honestly, I feel like that's a great, great place to go. Sorry, I was ranting there. I loved it. No, it's great. I had just been talking to my son about this, about what he wants to do after college. It's inspiring. It's crying me a fucking river. I would tell my son, I'm like, Oh, [38:12] Let's see. A wealthy, I mean, I'm wealthy and so he is. I said, a wealthy, white, tall, handsome man in America, what will become of you? Who's not depressed? And he's like, mom. I'm like, come on. God, if you can't figure something out, I don't know what I did to, I don't know what I did wrong. He's a great kid. He's such a funny kid. [38:35] Oh, well, thank you so much. This was truly an honor to spend some time. Thank you. Thank you so much. Oh, can I say one last thing? Have kids. Everybody have kids. Kids are the best. [38:44] Like, I know that sounds so retro, but I'm not a trad wife or anything like that. I have kids. Kids are the best. [38:50] You heard it here first. Kara Swisher says, be like water and have kids. Yeah. Okay. That's it. Be like water. All right. Thanks, guys. Thank you so much. Bye. Thank you so much for having me. See you. [38:59] *outro music*

[39:06] Okay, draft tweets draft tweets. Yeah, here we go. Here's mine. I'm so sad for trad boys who will never know the joy of facetiming with a girlfriend to talk about literally nothing while you're doing your makeup. [39:17] Nice. I do that all the time. Just we're FaceTiming and I'm doing my makeup and there's no reason for the call. And there's nothing that we're talking about. But there's a joy. There's a there's a. [39:28] Just a joy of the moment. That's a joy of life. [39:31] Joy of life. That's beautiful. That's really beautiful. Thank you. [39:34] So you didn't think it was very funny, so... It's not very funny, no. It's more like a... [39:39] It's more of like an observation about life. [39:41] I have another one headed to Japan for vacation. If my husband takes a single photo of me, I'll be sure to share it. [39:50] Did he? [39:51] He did because I told him I was going to tweet this. And then he was like, fine. Whatever an opposite of an Instagram husband is, is my husband. Yeah. So there is a kind of a trend on partner or husband photos of... [40:03] women on [40:04] And sharing that on gas carousels on TikTok. And it's really funny how awful the photos are. In what way? Oh, how bad the pictures are? How bad the photos are, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he really tried. And then I was like, honestly, actually... [40:17] You can stop. [40:19] I have one trying to explain Joe Bowden to my deeply offline husband. And it's the Microsoft Steve Ballmer clapping sweat guy photo. I have one. Does anyone have a primary care doctor?

[40:42] So, [40:43] That's where we're at. [40:44] There they are. [40:45] Drop tweets. See you later.