Context: Dev Moore, Co-Creative Director of Felt Zine, from Tumblr to collabing with Givenchy

[00:00] Welcome to Season 1, Episode 5 of Context, Views on Crypto and Culture, presented by Boys Club. With me, your host, Blake Finucane. [00:09] Today we have on the incredible Dev Moore. He's a net artist and co-creative director of Feltzine, which is really one of the coolest publications on the internet. They are leaders in terms of pushing the boundaries of how to create art with new media and have applied crypto applications to art and media production in really innovative ways. [00:29] We talk about Feltzine's recent collaboration with Givenchy on an NFT drop, about the definition of net art, and how to work with the internet as a medium of artistic production. [00:39] We also talk about how hip-hop is its own social network, and dive into some current event topics around crypto-punk acquisitions to some of the most important galleries in the world, and Hermes suing the creator of the derivative NFT Birkin Collection. [00:54] We talk about fashion, we talk about art, we talk about music, and all the opportunities crypto technology allows for these areas to expand. [01:01] So let's get into the episode. [01:10] Today we have with us the incredibly talented, smart, super cool, super lovely Dev Moore. He's a net artist, he's a curator, creative technologist, and the co-creative director of Feltzine, one of the most important art publications on the internet. I stand by that statement wholeheartedly. And Dev and I have been following each other on Twitter for years, and I've been following his work with Feltzine for a really long time.

[01:37] And for me, he really occupies a very unique space within crypto and Web3 as someone who bridges the gap between IRL and digital so uniquely and so skillfully, knowing what is actually cool in real life and in the real world, whether that's art, music, fashion, tech, and then is actually able to translate that into really interesting online expressions, which demands a very unique eye and skill set. [02:07] And just I think it's essential as well to give the listeners context about the influence, the importance and the incredibly high quality output that is Feltzine, which is an internet art collective that creates digital and in-person experiences to examine digital activism, hip hop culture, race, gender and class through the medium of Web3. [02:37] And now they are really leading the way in producing experimental 3D and digital art NFTs. They just released their amazing Feltzine NFT art shop in July. They also host just really fun parties and really awesome exhibitions worldwide. They're international. And they really create culture. They identify culture. And they broadcast it before anyone else. And they've done collabs and partnerships with everyone from Metamask to Givenchy. [03:07] They were even included in Days Magazine's 100 class of 2022 as creatives defining a new era of the internet. So with all that being said, Dev, you are literally the perfect person to have on a podcast about crypto and culture. I'm so honored that you said yes to my invitation. And thank you so much for joining me today.

[03:28] Yeah, thank you so much, Blake. This is really awesome. And yeah, probably the best intro I've ever heard. You like totally get us. I have to just like, take my role. As if. We are all needing to learn from you. So I'm just yeah, you're like literally the perfect fit. And I'm genuinely such a fan of what you do, which I hope has been clear in all the years following you. But so excited to have this conversation today. And I wanted to start just [03:58] about what your vision is for Feltzine going forward and what you're kind of creating today to, you know, push it into the future. [04:08] Yeah, definitely. And yeah, I definitely think your intro hit a lot of the points that I was even going to jump into. But yeah, essentially, you know, [04:18] in the next few years, even the next few weeks and months, we want to continue to figure out the best ways that we can connect to our community and giving as many opportunities as we can in a way that is efficient and works for us. So, you know, we definitely want to strive into, you know, we're obviously called Feltzine and that's how we essentially started with creating interactive zines that incorporated different digital artists around the world and everything. [04:48] culture in a more dynamic way and using more Web3 technology to make that happen. We also want to strive into other avenues that we haven't necessarily touched yet. So we definitely want to tap more into just like video game culture and figuring out other ways that we can create experiences around the art experiments and projects that we create too. So yeah, I would say that that's sort of like the

[05:15] the short midterm vision, I would say for, for felt scene, but it's always changing, which is a really good thing for us. And it, and we're always in a position where we can, uh, pivot as well. So I think those are things that really, you know, help us out in the long run. Yeah. And I think, I mean, yeah, what you guys have created is just so impressive. And I guess, you know, boys club also is working on their own zine and it will be released soon. So I, [05:45] For those who maybe aren't as familiar with... [05:50] zine culture and where you guys came out of. I'm wondering if you could go in and kind of define the importance of... [05:57] what a zine is and how it's kind of growing in, you know, [06:03] the onset of digital spaces. [06:06] Yeah, absolutely. I would say that it essentially started when I was in college and I majored in computer science. I low-key hated it. Our founder, Mark, he also majored, I forgot his major, but it wasn't anything particularly in the art world or even in tech, really. We kind of learned these skills on the fly and just through technology. [06:33] DIY nature and obviously the internet and whatnot. And same thing for John as well, who's another member. But yeah, when we were essentially in college, we were all very much into documenting culture. And felt Zine was probably maybe...

[06:48] six months old before I joined, I believe. But from there, you know, we figured out the best ways that we could take digital art that we find online and put it in a context that, [07:00] is actually, you know, like social first, digital first, but also works and it's immediate. And, yeah, just, and then overall just trying to figure out the best way that we could create a direct relationship with the people that were in tune with us without having to go through other particular institutions and galleries and everything. Totally, totally. [07:24] just to build on that, what ways were you displaying the zine then, you know, 2011, 2012, that, and how has it developed now? Was it like website based? Right. So that's kind of like an interesting thing because, you know, we're called Feldzine and we actually never really released a physical zine, maybe one time. The irony of, remember, like, but like irony was so big and like, you know, 2011, 2012. [07:54] that's also like a really interesting thing for us because it's, [07:57] um we essentially released our zines as purely digital zines so um sort of taking that stance was really important to us because it kind of put us in this space where we were saying you know like a zine doesn't have to just be this like physical thing that you know people are so used to it can be something that's interactive dynamic it can you know it can be programmable etc um so yeah we would pretty much document every single zine issue that we did um on our website and um

[08:27] If you go through our website, you can see issues one all the way up to [08:31] I think we're on like 70 or 80. But yeah, we were doing them weekly. And then we started to sort of spread them out a little bit because they were like really special and really important pieces that people really admired. But essentially, yeah, the interactive zine, it's essentially like an interactive website, where we either collaborate with an artist on new artworks, [08:55] whether they're mp4s jivs etc or sometimes we just purely um curated and provide an interview that comes along with it so we include all of that within this interactive website um and uh yeah and then we just essentially you know create a digital strategy around it so that we can communicate this across a bunch of different platforms and channels [09:18] But it was a great way that we could almost become this sort of... [09:23] library of really awesome art, sort of like a big art history book in a way. Oh, that's, I mean, a big art history book. That's like my literal dream. And I feel like too, you [09:36] What you were saying in terms of, like, what a zine really is, is the documentation and the capturing of culture and putting it in a way that's consumable and understandable to the people that care, no matter how niche. And it's like, you've created this, like... [09:50] stunning, so incredibly important archive for what was happening then and really innovative on how zines can storytell through digital spaces. Exactly. Yeah. And another really important part about that too is that we could have easily made it something where it was this insanely complicated website that people could access and check out our work. But we're going to

[10:20] we made sure that we would always make them extremely accessible because we wanted to sort of, yeah, we wanted to like spread the word and make sure that like, you know, people were checking out these particular sites that they could do it from, um, [10:32] nearly anywhere in the world. So, you know, we made sure that every issue we dropped was accessible. And that actually was very prominent and vital for us because even to this day, we have a lot of sort of like subcultures of artists and art communities that come from just like random places in the world that don't have like the best, you know, internet access, but they are able to still be [11:02] take high quality ways. So we take a lot of pride in that having, you know, accessibility being an important part of [11:10] sort of our values in terms of, you know, how we create the art and how you can access it and view it too. Which I love. And I guess at that time you said, you know, the other... [11:22] main members. They were in North Carolina. You were in Baltimore. Were you taking inspiration from what was actually happening in those places or was it more online based at that point? [11:37] Thank you. [11:38] Yeah, I would say mainly online, although I would say that sort of, you know, my experience in because I grew up in PG County, which is right outside of well, it's within the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area.

[12:08] art, it was not that, it wasn't that prominent. And I think that lack actually inspired me to really dive further into the internet and find these corners that were really interesting. So even to this day, you know, most of my friends that are digital artists, I met online. I didn't meet them at school. I didn't meet them in my particular city. It was something that even, like, inspired me to move to New York, just the fact that, [12:36] all of my friends that were digital artists, the ones in America at least. [12:40] So many of them were in New York. So, you know, the fact that [12:45] sort of digital communities are a thing or were a thing at the time. [12:50] you know, has really inspired my life and even, you know, where I've, [12:55] uh relocated to and everything as well yeah that's interesting yeah the digital pushing the irl versus the other way around um i'm wondering i mean felt zine has such a committed follower base and did like how hard was it to grow that community to where it is now and because you know especially at the time you know there wasn't as many places in 2012 2013 2014 for people to spend time online [13:25] together. So, you know, where, where, and, and, and how did you kind of nurture everyone at that time? [13:36] Wow. Yeah. So that's such a great question. Um, man, uh, there were so many sort of like shifts that we had, um, just like I realized like, okay, if we're communicating our art, sharing it online, uh, we have to figure out the best way to put these things in context and, you know, not like bore people with, um, sort of this like, um, I guess like institutionalized way of talking about it.

[14:05] Very pedantic kind of way of, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. So we wanted to do it in a way where, you know, it was sort of adjacent to how people talk to each other, how people share content with each other. And, you know, putting our art within that space in particular. So, you know, we started off pretty... [14:26] um pretty straightforward like we first were on tumblr oh my gosh of course of course how could i yeah good times good times exactly [14:36] And Tumblr is so great because, like, I mean, it's not really a big thing now, but I definitely love this OneWeb3.com. [14:44] organization called gallery and i feel like they're bringing back tumblr in a new way that they're putting their own spin onto it but anyway like um yeah you know we started on tumblr [14:55] And we shifted into Facebook because essentially tons of different digital artists were just in, you know, crazy little Facebook groups. And that's how people share their work with each other. And, you know, that work that actually was like a nice stepping stone to where we were and everything. [15:13] And we would connect people to our website in that way. Then we, you know, pushed really hard on just like being on Instagram because it just seemed perfect. It was just like this, you know, visual space that we could, you know, have our, you know, our work be the focus. It was a little bit different from Facebook. So we were actually, you know. [15:34] really big on just focusing on Instagram and getting people directly to our site, we started to realize that a lot of people don't even like going to websites. So we sort of like restructured the way that we even, you know, talk about shows and we talk about like our art and everything. We figured out that

[15:55] we should just leave everything on that platform to the point where, you know, you know, the actual interactive zine is still on our website, but you can still get all of the info within, you know, the post that we were creating. So we kind of, you know, we were on Twitter. It wasn't really... [16:12] Twitter was okay, but I would definitely say Instagram was the main place that we were fortunately able to grow. But as time went on, more algorithmic-driven apps became sort of the vibe, I guess. And we could easily, very readily see that our growth and growth. [16:34] Even the way that people were able to see our work started dwindling down. It was very interesting because you might do the same sort of process every day to kind of grow there. But yeah, like... [16:49] I think around 2020 is when we realized that Twitter was definitely like a much stronger place that we could actually be in a deeper connection with the people that, you know, like what we do. And and then, of course, you know, connecting that with Web3 and that being sort of like the core technology behind our work definitely made it, you know, [17:13] 10 times 100 times better now we don't really even have to um you know in terms of like our interactive zines and everything yeah now we don't even have to host the artworks we can you know just embed them and we don't even have to worry about um you know the particular artworks kind of

[17:29] maybe our website goes down or something one day. We don't have to worry about that anymore. We can really focus on being able to [17:38] take people's artwork and put it into context and they still have ownership over it. Yeah. I love that. And, and just, um, [17:46] Maybe switching gears a bit... [17:49] You are a creator yourself. You're an artist yourself. You also work with a bunch of artists. And you just recently, obviously, launched the NFT art shop for Feltzine. I'd love for you to talk about how you define good art. What makes something interesting and compelling to you? [18:11] Wow. Okay. Wow, that's a good question. You've got amazing questions. Oh, thank you so much. I mean, and you know, we're all looking to you or, you know, because I just think that you're, again, as I said in the intro, I mean, your eye is so developed. So I know it's sometimes too, I feel like hard to articulate for someone who just you have it naturally to just see things and you know, you like them. So I know it's, it's not the easiest [18:41] the main thing that I want to say is that, you know, like even if you deem something to be an incredible piece of work, it could be completely trash to somebody else, you know, thousand percent. [18:52] Oh my gosh, yeah. [18:54] So, you know, even with like, for instance, like streetwear, I know there are a lot of particular like pieces that might come out. They're incredible now or maybe they're incredible a few years later. But a lot of people just look at it like it's a monstrosity or whatever. But yeah, at least for me, I think that's something that.

[19:14] I won't say like I like divisive art, but as long as a piece of work sparks, you know, conversation, it gets people to actually interact with each other. Let's say like, you know, we go to an art gallery and we both see a piece of work on the wall and, you know, we're able to share what we think when we were in front of that. And, you know, it probably won't be the same thing. [19:44] an interesting discussion about it. Um, not like in the very like institutionalized way where it has to be about like, um, [19:51] you know, um, history, but just any particular conversation really. Yeah. So I think that that's sort of like the one sort of rule that I have, like if it's something that can spark convo, [20:06] Um, and, and maybe even have two people share each other's perspective. Cause you know, we all have different unique, um, [20:14] viewpoints on everything. We have different experiences. Um, that's, that's when art is at its best because from there you get to see how many, [20:23] element. You know, there's a bunch of like, especially in the NFT world, there are tons of projects that [20:30] you know, some people think are completely trash that end up being amazing in terms of just like iconography or just, you know, being interesting and whatnot. And then sometimes there are those

[20:44] you know, are trying to be this and that. And sometimes it just doesn't hit good to me. Yeah, and I like that too, because I think in the context of NFT, it's like, you know... [20:56] people hate things. People hate collections. People are passionate about what they don't like as much as what they do like. And that in a lot of ways is what you're looking for in these collections. And that's what really sparks the buying and the chat and all of that. So I think in a lot of ways, they're very close together in terms of a successful NFT collection, whether art or not, and an artistic piece that just kind of stands on its own. [21:26] tapped in, I was wondering if there are any artists, music, art, fashion, or otherwise that you think are interesting. [21:37] Definitely. It's not a personal plug, but with Beltzine, we have a founder, Mark, Mark Sab, Mark Digital HD. That's his name and online persona. And then we also have John Diego. I think that both of them in their solo work are doing amazing things because one, Mark is able to take a lot of projects that he's creating. He's actually someone that got me really into even AI artwork as well. [22:07] He has this one project called Gardens of Feltzine Delights that he created alongside a bunch of collaborators like Ty VHS and...

[22:18] Max from Zora. And it's just this really awesome project that combines a bunch of different 3D software. So it's a mix of SEMA 40. It's a mix of AI in terms of Google, using like a Google collab process. And there's also DAS 3D processes within it. And, and of course, Python scripting to put together this just beautiful project. And yeah, just I think that, you know, shout out to Mark. [22:48] recently [22:49] Yeah, John Diego. He is an amazing artist because, you know, he's able to really experiment with the actual blockchain in a really interesting way. So he's done tons of drops that, you know, shape go artworks from him. So he goes all the way he goes all the way to like North or South Carolina to actually print his artwork out. But, yeah, he's a big fan of just taking real life objects like stuff. [23:18] Like he did this one piece that he gave to me that has a bunch of characters that he designed himself, but he has a bunch of like random small things that I actually own. Like he has my GoPro 3D scanned into a project. He has the cart that I take to the grocery store to put my groceries in that's included in the artwork. [23:41] And he's able to do that in like really interesting ways. So it's, you know, you get, you can get some of his artwork and he has like a way of making it

[23:50] personal too in a cool way um you know using scans and everything um [23:55] Yeah, I'm a big fan of, once again, like 113. He's created Terraforms, which is sort of a... [24:03] dynamic on-chain virtual world where each particular NFT is this almost like programmable piece of almost like land in a way that you can customize in some ways. I think it's really cool. I want to just because you mentioned really... [24:20] at the heart, you are a net artist. And I think for people... [24:25] I think that's a very specific term that a lot of people actually aren't familiar with. Just lastly, I'd love for you to go through what... [24:33] NetArt is. [24:36] Yeah, definitely. There are so many different interpretations for it, in my opinion. [24:43] At least for me, I think of it very much in the sense of art that's made... [24:50] for and by the internet. So, um, something that's taking these particular tools, um, in this, uh, you know, era of technology that we're in and, you know, regardless of whether it's, um, you know, a browser or if it's, um, you know, a piece of hardware or, um, you know, um, a particular like virtual space online, actually being able to just study and understand, um, these tools that are, [25:20] within that particular area.

[25:21] medium. So in my opinion, you know, like the internet becomes this, this medium that, you know, you, you speak within and, um, you know, the internet means so many things to so many people nowadays, but. [25:34] Yeah, I would just say that that's kind of like the... [25:37] the basic sort of definition that I would give it just, you know, someone that is able to take these technologies and, you know, [25:45] create a story and a symbolic story out of them and using these tools and in a creative manner. So that can go, you know, across, yeah, just like, [25:55] Being a virtual exhibition producer, curator, or whether you're, you know, experimenting with a project that is rendering, you know, 3D images. [26:09] uh, objects within the browser or, you know, really anything. Uh, it's such a broad term, but, um, yeah, that would be my answer. Totally love it. [26:23] Where I want to move next, as we're kind of reaching the halfway point, the first segment is called current flags, whether they're red flags, green flags, yellow flags, notable projects, events, data points to speak about that represent and point to bigger trends within crypto.

[26:53] Atlanta kind of, it started in Atlanta. Now it is New York-based brand, Bistroy, for a spring 2023 capsule collection where there were six limited edition NFTs that were unveiled, which were created by none other than Feltzian, which were each individually pegged. They were digital twins to the physical products contained in the capsule collection. There was like denim-covered biker boots. There was a patchwork black bomber jacket. There was a black hoodie with a central logo. [27:23] And owners of these NFTs then will gain access to Givenchy's upcoming Web3 program. And this was Givenchy's first collaboration with a Web3 native platform, being felt seen, again, speaking to the eliteness of what you guys have created in terms of the people that are attracted to what you're doing. And I just love, Dev, for you to talk about the experience working with the brand and how that came about. Yeah, definitely. [27:53] very particular awesome project that Mark Sab, Mark Digital HD, what that would look like, what the process would look like. And, you know, his grand idea, which was really awesome, was that he wanted to figure out a way to represent Web3 and to represent Internet art culture, but doing it in a way where, you know, one piece of artwork is [28:17] could be almost like a collage of many different artists. So, you know, if you check, yeah. So if you check out the pieces, a really cool thing is that,

[28:28] pretty much like every single texture. Um, there, there are some pieces that have like six or seven different styles within it. Um, each one comes from a different particular artist. So he was almost able to make almost like a, I think of it in like a very hip hop manner, like you were to listen to like a, [28:46] like a seven minute song and it's like a posse cut and you have a bunch of different like features on it um i feel like he was able to do that visually so um you know there are some pieces within the collection that have a little bit of touch from uh myself there's one that has a touch from john there's one that has a small touch from uh ty vhs and and um you know and another one from [29:16] take their collection that they had worked on in terms of clothing and then reinterpret it in terms of uh making an experimental uh fashion nft so yeah i love i love that i didn't know that there was so many layers and and how brilliant that is in terms of what you guys actually did um with the drop was was so web 3 native you couldn't have really done that in any other medium and then [29:46] bespoke nature or the real specialized nature of what really high-end clothing is, which is that it's such a collaboration and so many people have to work on it for it to be what it is. So it's like, that's just such a brilliant way that you were able to play with those mediums. And again, that digital to IRL that Feltzene does so well, it's just like, that's-

[30:05] So smart. Did the project and you working with such a big house, did that impact your understandings and the possibilities of what you think Web3 fashion can be going forward? [30:21] Yeah, definitely. I would say that, you know, after that particular experience and people's reception to it, how people were so excited about that particular project, I think that one really important thing that came out of it was that... [30:35] The future very much looks like something where it's not necessarily, you know, tons of big brands working with other huge, you know, [30:46] external brands as well. Like, um, you know, I guess I don't really want to like throw an example of big brand versus big brand, but, um, very, very much, uh, you know, big brands trying to figure out the best way that they can be authentic and connect with real artists doing real things. Um, so I think that that was a really cool symbolic, um, [31:07] example of what that particular collaboration was. You know, a very cool, awesome, you know, creative director and Matthew Williams seeing that and then being able to tap into that because, you know, he definitely also comes from, you know, a very streetwear oriented, you know, mindset in terms of, you know, how he approaches fashion and everything. So I think that, you know, that was particularly what, you know, I saw out of it where the future is very much, you know,

[31:37] no matter how big you are, you still want to find the most authentic and organic and real things in the world. You know, people actually creating culture or people that actually care about culture and what they do. So I think that's a bright, a bright thing to look forward to as well. I think that it worked, you know, great. And at the end of the day, the very cool thing is that because they're NFTs, we're still able to integrate it into our homepage and our website as [32:07] We're able to have this cool way where it can be on the Javantsu site, it can be on our site. People can access it on our site. It's awesome. Yeah, and I guess, again, that speaks to just how digitally native objects, they can be so cross-disciplinary or used for so many things at once. And that's just so, again... [32:35] particularly to digital spaces, which you just can't achieve if, you know, it's a bomber jacket in real life. It's like one person is wearing it, you know what I mean? So I think that's really, really cool. And, you know, from one luxury fashion house to another, the next flag that I wanted to talk about, very hot topic in the Boys Club Discord, which is the Hermes NFT verdict, [33:05] of course, one of the most exclusive elite fashion houses in the world, home to the famous Birkin bag that goes, you know, for, you know, if you know how to buy one, maybe you can get one for 10K. But, you know, we're talking 20, 30, $100,000, depending on the rarity and the actual material that the Birkins are made with. And referencing a business of fashion article, it was just announced a jury in New York granted Hermes a victory

[33:35] MetaBurken NFT creator Mason Rothschild. MetaBurken, it's a series of 100 unique images, NFTs depicting... [33:45] like multicolored fur covered Birkin bags. And this decision is really expected to establish important precedents for how the law treats blockchain based digital assets. [33:59] Rothschild has to pay damages as Hermes basically has accused him of violating trademarks. It holds on its Birkin bags and diluting the Birkin name. So, you know, [34:13] I'm just wondering, you know, with this happening and for this decision again, what, [34:19] expected to establish important precedents for how the law, at least the American law, treats blockchain-based digital assets. Does this impact or does this change in terms of how you're always pushing out to content? You're always pushing the limits in terms of what you're producing, who you're collaborating with. Does this change anything for you? Does this make you think twice? Or how do you receive this type of news? [34:44] Bye. [34:45] Yeah, you know, it doesn't bother me too much, but I definitely think that, you know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but yeah, like when a large organization like that is particularly, you know, providing like a lawsuit or any type of sort of. [35:03] blockage toward someone else that has this, you know, I guess, you know, inspo for them, or when someone is inspired by you, and they want to create something that's kind of like similar or derivative, I think that that should be, you know, praised or embraced. So I definitely think that, yeah, so I definitely think that at least in Web3, I think one thing that's been growing, you know, obviously, like CCO and open source IP, and being able to build on top of IP, I don't think that, you know, the rest of the

[35:33] the world is fully into that idea yet. They definitely want to protect their, you know, what they've made and anything that's similar to it. It also reminds me of, um, Nike, for instance, um, they recently sued Bape, which, uh, you know, created, uh, yeah. [35:50] Yeah, they recently... Makes sense. Not recently, but Bait. Yeah, Bait has the Baits'is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Iconic shoe. I actually... Did you ever own Baits'is? [36:01] I did I'm gonna be honest I did [36:05] - I did find it. - Yeah, they're awesome. - Yeah. - And you know, [36:09] Nego, the... [36:11] The creative director, Nego, made that shoe years ago. And he even says that it's highly inspired by the Air Force One and everything. But to even see someone like Nike, for instance, who probably does the same thing, even Adidas as well. They look at other sneakers. They're inspired by them. They make their own version of it. They're always inspired and taking from underground culture. That's kind of what these big brands are based on. And just for context, again, for the people that don't know what babes are, [36:41] it's kind of based on an Air Force One or it looks kind of like an Air Force One. So for those of you who weren't wearers or fans of babes, that's the image that you can keep in your mind for them. [36:52] Thank you. [36:52] Yeah, and I'm a huge fan of Nego and what he did at Bateman. [37:00] That shoe in particular is so iconic because it's sort of this evolution or this remix of the Air Force One. And, you know, when brands today or organizations or huge brands or whatever today are suing smaller people because there's, you know, they're inspired by...

[37:17] you know, this larger brand or whatever, I think there should be like a better way that you can empower that person rather than, you know, throwing a suit at them. I think that there, there were so many other opportunities where they could have, [37:29] you know, built something interesting rather than just, you know, protecting their IP. But yeah, I mean, [37:35] It doesn't really change anything that we're doing. I don't think we're really [37:42] we've been in that position or anything, but at least for our artwork, [37:47] And what we release most of it is, you know, CCO, which has this sort of like, you can build on it, you can make derivatives of it, etc. [37:57] Um, and, and we're cool with that because if we see someone kind of like, you know, checking out our work and making something kind of similar, we take it as almost a compliment, you know? Totally, totally. And I mean, it's like crypto in general, Web3 and Dremel is built on the like profound belief that interoperability is what like network effects, which are people building on top of other people's ideas. And that's what makes it so beautiful, which again, the suit kind of goes right against. [38:27] of CCO and how powerful that's been around all of that. But, you know, and I think even for large fashion brands or media brands in general, it's like the meme-ification, so to speak, of their products, like the circulation of someone's image and brand, that is normally really positive. That's what kind of creates these really powerful network effects and makes people want to buy your product. But again, I think with Hermes, you're kind of dealing with this very different beast

[38:57] exclusivity on this like revoking of access. And this is really central to their brand proposition. Even I think way more so than a lot of other luxury brands, because, you know, I was thinking in relation to say a Chanel or a Louis Vuitton, um, [39:13] And both of these brands have positioned themselves as more trendy, cutting edge, very current. But when you look at Hermes, they're really not interested in what's current and of the moment. Their brand identity is way more classic. They're not trying to be trendy. So I think it's higher stakes for them in that way. [39:43] And I mean, it's funny too, because NFT is one of the main upsides, of course, is authenticity. You know who owns it, you know who created it. And so the fact that they're kind of like infringing on like, how dare you take this design? And because it's not authentic, it's like, we all know it's not authentic. Like, that's not the point. The point is this remix culture. So yeah, I think it's really, really interesting. And we'll see how it goes. But I hope that that doesn't continue. [40:13] And, you know, with them, in the flag section... [40:17] Two fashion stories. I had to include an art story in it as well as our last flag, which is that it was just announced that the Pompidou Center acquired a set of works dealing with the relationship between blockchain and artistic creation, including its first NFTs, the highlight of these acquisitions, in my humble opinion, a crypto punk. And, you know, this is the National Museum of Modern Art for France.

[40:47] in this acquisition. It's the largest modern art museum in Europe. And they said that they will soon be exhibiting all these works. So a crypto punk will be hung amongst one of the top modern art collections in the world. And funnily enough, I was actually at Pompidou Center last Monday, last week. And you name it, they have it in terms of their collection. They have Fountain by Duchamp, released in 1917, genre-defying, world-shifting piece of art. [41:17] Yeah. [41:18] setting the stage for modernism going forward. They have self-portraits by Frida Kahlo. They have New York by Piet Mondrian. So in terms of masterpieces, which is not something I use lightly, they have, which really stood out to me when I was there last week, they have the Black Cross by Kazimierz Malevich, which was painted in 1915, the leader of kind of the Russian avant-garde movement, a godfather of abstract art. And it really, this work really distills an image down [41:48] It's a black cross. It's a white background. You know, I had to have an art history moment. I always do in these podcasts, but it's kind of... [41:55] perfect and pushing the limits, you know, when I looked at that piece last week, but reflecting on it now, it really pushes the limits of what art can do and what it can be defined as. And so reflecting on it and then being able to kind of [42:11] compare it to the acquisition of the CryptoPunk this week, what I think that this really means is that

[42:19] crypto technology is genuinely having an impact on how art is defined and how technology is used for expression. And this acquisition just really demonstrates that considering that, you know, a crypto punk will be hung alongside some of the kind of great and greatest modern artworks like of our time. So I'd love to get your thoughts on what you think is the significance of this acquisition with that long winded intro that I just gave. [42:49] Definitely. Yeah, I think that, you know, their decision to take in a CryptoPunk is, at least in my opinion, I think that's amazing. I think that that's a step. You know, I definitely remember in the early 2000s. [43:04] What was it? 2021. Cause like 2020 was cool because no one really knew the NFT really was. Yeah, totally. Yeah. [43:14] It was amazing. Me and you were on Twitter still following each other. That's for sure. But, you know, there was few of us then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [43:21] And then, yeah, and then like, I would say like in 2021, I remember after that particular wave happened, people reacted to it, people started to build their sort of like positive cases for it, negative cases for it, their opinions and everything.

[43:51] the Ethereum ecosystem, you know, it's a much more, more, [43:57] sustainable, you know, network in general. I think that's great. And secondly, I think that, you know, taking this particular NFT project, the CryptoPunks, you know, people consider that, you know, [44:10] the first or if not one of the first projects. I think that, you know, that particular project, being on Ethereum, being in this particular space that, you know, has these particular crypto values of decentralization and having ownership and digital ownership and, and, [44:30] all of these particular things that are kind of like new for people like digital property. Um, I think that, you know, them taking in that particular piece, um, also translates in, and speaks those, uh, particular values as well. So, you know, they could have picked, [44:46] Tons of other different projects, but at least for CryptoPunks, I think it's really awesome that they were able to take that in because beyond the actual, even like the, you know, style of the project and whatnot, I think it's great. But the actual, you know, story behind it is so symbolic. Totally, totally. Yeah. And I mean, I think too, like... [45:07] It's really like what you're saying around, it's just so, this artwork and this acquisition, it's so tied to technological development of the Ethereum ecosystem. And so it also represents this deep melding, this total reliance of...

[45:27] technology and art and that they're truly one and the same. So it expands then, I think in relation, it expands the definition of both. Like a protocol can be art and art can be a protocol. And like that in itself is like... [45:42] so incredible and so dynamic. And I think that it also kind of, [45:47] The Pompidou in general, I think they've really been on the cutting edge of acquiring new media works since really the 1960s with acquiring video works. Well, how are you supposed to maintain a VHS? You know what I mean? [46:17] with that so this again to me it's so kind of historically aligned with questions and issues that have been happening for a really long time around new media works um but it's just it's so exciting that um in this case with a technology that we're both so close to and that we engage with every day being you know [46:39] crypto and the Ethereum blockchain in particular, I think it just it represents a way in which it can also push kind of like software development into a realm of art, which is like so exciting. Yeah. [46:54] Yeah, definitely. I think you put that in great context. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I like that you keep using the word context because, you know, that's the name of the podcast. So I love it.

[47:11] For the last segment, it's called Under the Radar. And I was going through your Twitter in preparation for this conversation and so many things stood out to me. But what I really wanted to zero in on was a tweet that you wrote a couple months ago and you said that the blockchain is the future of hip hop and 90% of artists don't understand it. [47:35] on this more, where you see the possibilities of blockchain and Web3 in relation to hip-hop. I know you've touched in on it a bit in this conversation, but I think you have a lot of interesting things to say about this. A big sort of [47:48] I guess like a big idea that I had always been thinking about, well, that I've been thinking about is that at least in the hip hop world and hip hop culture, they're not necessarily utilizing Web3 in the way that I would love to see it. Of course, there are definitely, you know, really awesome people that are dropping NFTs, some great, some, you know, in weird ways. But I definitely think in terms of just like... [48:16] Because I guess like the way I'm trying to say is that, you know, hip hop is a very much like a world and a culture that was built on essentially, you know, sampling and taking part in what someone else is doing, honoring it and then building on top of that or, you know, reinterpreting it in a way that fits, you know, your story and everything.

[48:46] engage in this awesome, you know, genre and culture at large. You know, there are so many issues where artists are being exploited by their particular labels. There's issues where there are like bad contracts that are open and transparent. So I'm, you know, a big fan of just figuring out, [49:07] ways that these particular music artists can one, you know, revolutionize the way that they're dealing with, [49:14] other particular labels or people that are trying to sign them, etc. There are artists like Dom McLennan from the group Brockhampton, for instance, that's doing a lot of really awesome work in that particular field. Interesting. [49:30] outside of like labels and everything i think that this is a grand case for being independent and being an independent artist and not having um you know what you release and what you say um being censored or controlled by some larger entity that has you know no relation to your culture and what you do they're just trying to profit from um from you so i definitely think that you know [49:56] putting in, uh, not just like putting your work on the blockchain, but actually diving into how it works, how you can reinterpret what you want to do in this particular project that you're creating and doing it in a way where the blockchain becomes, you know, part of your artwork is really, really cool. And, um, I think a great example is, um, you know, a lot of like AI driven music. I love that a lot of, um, you know, producers are figuring out ways to take particular stems and

[50:26] releasing them in generative ways as albums. Um, I love, uh, one of our projects called God GIF, which is a really cool, um, collaboration with the artists, Jay Nice and, um, Mark Saab as well being on the visual side. And it was a very awesome way where, um, one, we were able to collaborate with a hip hop artist that does, you know, music primarily. And two, we were able to, you know, create a music player for it. So we were able to, you know, create this web three [50:56] player. People were able to go to the site. [50:59] listened to the album. The album was inspired by Web3. And I feel bad because, you know, um, [51:06] That's probably one of the largest, I won't say hip hop moments in Web3, but that's like one of the top ones, which is not good. But I love that now, you know, a lot of independent artists are able to just say like, hey, you know, I want to collaborate with a visual artist. And then, boom, you can make a music, a visual player for it. You can release your work and then you can also accompany it with, you know, an audio visual project as well. [51:36] being on chain and everything, you can easily implement these split contracts. So as time goes on, you know, you don't have to call someone up to, you know, worry, worry, or figure out if, you know, a particular sale is going to your wallet, you see everything in this transparent, open way. So I think that, yeah, just like,

[51:57] really, um, [51:58] interesting implementations of the blockchain in, in music can be a very good thing and a very beneficial thing. And, [52:07] I think we need like less of sort of these... [52:11] large like music NFT movements, like pushing people to these platforms and more [52:17] you know, support for just creators that just want to make their own thing and not necessarily be like a huge conglomerate. That's, you know, bringing a ton of like music artists to, you know, to one platform. I think we need like every artist just to have their own, you know, platform. And, but yeah, that's, that's kind of like my thing. And I think there definitely needs to be more, you know, hip hop inspired Web3 stuff from people that, you know, are actually like really into, you know, hip hop culture and not just like someone that's like, you know, [52:47] just using it for aesthetics and everything. So yeah, that's kind of like my perspective on that tweet there, right? Totally. And you said too in the same tweet, which I, or in the same tweet thread, you said, hip hop was always the original social network. [53:02] And I loved that, particularly, you know, as you're talking about explaining it and remix culture and, you know, collaboration culture and how there's... [53:17] There's so many complementary aspects between Web3 and hip-hop and the real principles of them both. [53:24] Right, exactly. You know, I mean, I can't really give like an example of who did this first or whatever. But yeah, like when you hear a particular like song from the late 80s or early 90s.

[53:38] even really the late 70s too, that's, you know, a hip hop song and everything, a lot of times that was the particular space or that was the particular, you know, avenue they had to actually speak about what's actually going on. And doing it in this unfiltered way that's, you know, [53:57] raw and real. And, um, you know, even today, like hip hop is, in my opinion, uh, you know, one of the purest, uh, forms of music because it's, you know, it's not filtered. It's not something where, I mean, it can be filtered. I take it back, but, uh, for the most part, it's core, um, you know, values and its core philosophy is, you know, being unfiltered and, [54:27] and describing them in [54:29] and the ways that fit, you know, who you are and everything. And all of those things are, you know, [54:34] really important that that ends up becoming a social network because, you know, someone might have the same sonic as you or the same beat and everything. And they have, you know, a way of saying the same thing, but from a different angle. And maybe people want to respond to each other. [54:49] Um, maybe people want to just explore, you know, different types of Sonics and how they inspire people to rap on them and everything. But yeah, just in general, um, yeah, I, I think I, I think I, I, I think I, I think [55:03] I think I thought about that when I used to work at the National Museum of African-American History and Culture. Amazing. And I had to do some work. Yeah, I had to do some like...

[55:13] Digital strategy work for this book they were releasing called the Smithsonian, uh, [55:19] anthology of hip-hop and rap and I just remember some I can't remember who who said it in the book but someone kind of just said like ah like you know social media is this and that but you know hip-hop is the real place to you know speak your mind and everything and I thought that was so cool and interesting because uh [55:39] you know, music travels [55:41] And especially hip hop, it travels regardless of what platform and tools you have. People just get it out there, you know, if it's good and if it's saying something that's connecting to people. So I think that's really awesome that hip hop is almost like a decentralized network as well. [56:11] listeners, I don't think that that kind of framework is out there enough. And yeah, that's just, I think that'll be really, really incredible for people in terms of contextualizing the possibilities and the opportunities and what we can learn from hip hop and inviting people in from that world into Web3 and how that can work. So yeah, super brilliant take. [56:41] on. I think the audience will learn so much. And I'm super inspired. I think your insights were so, so valuable. And just thank you so much for being on today. Yeah, thank you so much. This was really awesome. And it was really cool and a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for listening. Please like, subscribe and review this podcast wherever it is you listen. Every little bit helps. Also, sign up for the free Boys Club newsletter. Link in the show notes.