Ep 153: Feelings Check-In with Mary-Catherine Lader, COO at Uniswap Labs, on what needs to go right for crypto to realize its potential

[00:00] The Feelings Check-In is a podcast for people who love to listen to two women overshare about the challenges of building a business, navigating careers in tech, and trying to have a personal life. I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. No. [00:20] Just boys club. [00:22] How's it going? Good. I feel like I've just been hanging with the Uniswap girlies at Fest. We got our ears pierced together. They're so, so cute. I love all of them. And their boss was on the pod today, which was great. [00:39] I feel like there's a critical mass now of boys club girlies who are working at Uniswap and boys club. [00:47] Boy, so boy, we got our lad Dylan. [00:50] Our live Dylan. Yeah. So anyway, this is the feelings check in. I'm Natasha. That's Dina. This is a podcast where we talk about our feelings and our lives and our careers and other people who are very smart come on and do the same. And we have a very special guest on the pod today. Who do we have to do? We had on Mary Catherine Leder. She is the COO at Uniswap and had a big career in TradFi before joining Uniswap three years ago and was a delight. [01:20] talked a lot about Uniswap's [01:23] role in the crypto ecosystem and her personal motivation for getting into crypto and what drives her, which I think is really interesting. And I left the conversation feeling very inspired by her. Me too.

[01:38] individually and then by Uniswap more generally. It felt really nice to... [01:42] here especially in this dark dark week that we're dark week yeah not a feelings first lady but that's okay I I think that we got I think we got to some feelings we got to some feelings yeah I really really enjoyed it and and like her a lot and she's extremely smart I feel like I should give you a debrief on fest on the pod let's hear it I mean I don't really I have really nothing to say except that I had so much fun it's summer camp for adults I will go every year it's a such a special place [02:12] shout out to that team for doing the work to create a space where people can have a great time and feel really inspired as well. I'm feeling like it's so nice to talk about the internet with people who really care about it and think about it all the time and who are really, really smart. And I was struck by what an incredible... [02:33] group of people that work in this weird, wonderful industry [02:37] I can't believe the garbage day guy was there. Oh my God. I loved his talk. It was so nuts. I was watching it with a friend and they turned to me and they were like, [02:46] What is that? [02:47] Who is this person? Like, he was so funny. He's so smart. I love him. We have to get him on the podcast. I went up to him after and I was like... [02:56] I love your... [02:57] your newsletter I read it every day it's so good and he was such a sweet guy and he you could tell he was just like as someone who writes a newsletter you're just like that's so nice yeah yeah yeah he has honestly like part of what I love about him is that you see a lot of recycled takes uh everywhere all the time on the internet and I always feel like when I open his newsletter I'm gonna get something really fresh and that is original and so anyway another endorsement for garbage day

[03:27] now and um yeah i can't believe he was that fast [03:30] I'm going to definitely be watching that. Yeah, you should definitely watch the talk. And an endorsement for a fest for next year. If you'd like to stay in a cabin with me, hit me up. I cook really great food and I'm a great time. We have a great time together. Okay. Enjoy this episode. [03:47] you [03:48] It's time for a more open, inclusive, and transparent financial system. A system that serves nearly everyone, everywhere, all the time. That's why we love today's sponsor, Kraken. Kraken is a crypto platform that provides a super simple on-ramp to the world of crypto with a 24-7 support team. Crypto transcends physical and imaginary borders. No matter where you are, you can send funds easily and quickly to almost any part of the world. Plus, forget about waiting times and waiting lines. You can send, receive, and trade crypto anywhere near instantly. [04:18] be at kraken.com backslash boys club non-investment advice crypto trading involves risk of loss transfers to a third party are not available on kraken cryptocurrency services are provided to us and us territory customers by payward ventures inc pvi dba kraken view pvi's disclosures at kraken.com backslash legal backslash disclosures so on today's feelings check-in we have mary katherine later chief operating officer at uniswap labs [04:45] Welcome to the show. [04:46] Thanks for having me. We're super excited to have you, especially right now. It's been a bit of a weird week. The markets are not good. And so I'm wondering how you're feeling. Feels like an appropriate place to start the feelings check-in with you.

[05:02] Well, it's also raining in New York City, which is where I live and work. So like that informs my day and my feelings today. Vibes are down. Vibes are down bad. Vibes are down. Yeah. Vibes are at least muted. They're at least very muted. [05:16] And there were high vibes over the weekends of FWB Fest. I know we did some stuff with you guys. So I think there was like plenty of excitement over the past few months. And this is like a shift. [05:26] But, [05:26] You know, I worked in markets my whole career and in crypto full time now for three years. So it doesn't like get to me. Nice. That makes one of us. [05:36] Well, it doesn't mean that I have like empathy for how painful it is. I just sort of, you know, I have these little like Unispot price widgets for different tokens and Ether and stuff like that on the home screen of my phone. And at times like this, I just delete them. You know what? I'm going to do that because I'm finding that to be the most disruptive thing is I get my notifications and it's like Ether's down. [05:56] 5% over the past four hours. And I'm like, I don't need to see this in my day-to-day. Unless you're going to, like, do something, you know? I'm not going to do anything. No, exactly. [06:07] So... [06:08] Who needs to know then? Totally. I want to know about your background. I know you had a prestigious career in TradFi, made the jump to... [06:17] DeFi. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, well, I first got interested in crypto in 2011. I first bought Bitcoin in 2011 when I read the Bitcoin white paper and then started BlackRock. I had a fintech startup after I graduated from [06:30] Law School and Business School, shut it down. It's too early ahead of its time. And then I went to BlackRock and my second week there,

[06:38] started [06:39] their digital assets work. [06:43] Basically, Larry Fink, who's the CEO and founder of BlackRock in an all-company town hall, [06:48] was asked what he thought of Bitcoin in 2015. And he was like, I think it's mostly for money laundering, but maybe there's some potential. And I, having started my career during the financial crisis, [06:59] and a trading desk. [07:01] felt really strongly that there was a lot of potential for an open financial system, wrote a memo of what BlackRock should do, not really knowing who would ever read it. And they were like, [07:08] Hello, you are now in charge of figuring this out. So 2015, I spent a bunch of, I like started a little lab of developers and experiments at BlackRock to build on Ethereum, which was, you know, Ethereum had been around for a year. So that was... [07:21] a very different time. It was like the first wave of enterprise blockchain, still a time when financial institutions were interested in private blockchains and really not even considering public blockchains. The fact that we were building experiments in Ethereum was unusual. And then I didn't do that as my full time job. It was like a six month [07:38] kind of project exploration. And I was still responsible for overseeing it, but I went on to build other FinTech businesses that were directionally, a matter of my fashion, which is trying to make the financial system more accessible. - In BlackRock? - And better. At BlackRock, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I built a digital, like a robo-advice, digital wealth management business, and then I built a sustainable investing and climate risk [07:58] business. And then a friend of mine had joined Uniswap in 2020. [08:03] as their head lawyer. [08:05] And it's like the whole time I've known you, you have been passionate about blockchain and crypto. And the whole time I've known you, you've still worked at BlackRock. And so this company...

[08:15] can change the world. [08:16] but so many things have to go right. [08:18] and be done right for that to happen and if you don't leave to do this like [08:22] Just look yourself in the mirror tomorrow and say, I have a big company. [08:25] person. I was just like, oof. [08:26] That was harsh. [08:29] And not true. I had started, I found a startup. I was, you know. And so as I got to know Hayden, [08:36] and the team, which was 10 people at the time, it was just obvious to me that Uniswap [08:41] was a new... [08:42] a totally new thing in the history of financial markets. [08:45] So it was really a no-brainer. It wasn't like a... [08:48] really [08:49] fraught decision. [08:50] it was pretty obvious to me that this was [08:53] going to be something that spoke to me and what I hope is possible in my lifetime. [08:57] in changing the financial system. So it was an easy transition. It wasn't like a hard transition. It wasn't a hard decision. And I've been at Uniswap now for three years. [09:05] And were most of your friends and people around you and colleagues, they weren't surprised to hear you going into crypto? [09:12] No, I think everyone was more surprised that I'd been in finance for so long. Like, I think everyone was like, you know, my kind of my role at BlackRock was like starting the new thing and scaling it. And so... [09:22] it was like okay i'd just done that twice over from zero to hundreds of people zero dollars to you know millions of dollars of revenue and [09:31] I felt like it was time for a new challenge. And also, I [09:35] I worked trying to make the user experience better for individuals in finance through robo advice and digital wealth management and then the incentives through sustainable investing.

[09:46] and really felt strongly that the most powerful change has to come from changing the rails. [09:50] that if you don't change the rails, you can't change the incentives. You can't change ultimately like how people individuals experience. [09:56] money. [09:57] So I don't think anybody was surprised. [10:00] Do they text you, do your BlackRock friends text you now and they're like, hey, what's going on in crypto? Well, now BlackRock does stuff in crypto. Now BlackRock's in crypto. So my former colleagues have been to the Uniswap office, you know, the Uniswap, the BlackRock team and stuff, just to learn about automated market making and what we do. And I'm so thrilled to see that they have [10:19] now been leading in trad. [10:22] And because I think it makes a lot of sense, like BlackRock is very long-term oriented in the context of [10:27] established financial institutions and on the side of the investor. Right. They're not an inter they are sort of an intermediary, but they aren't. [10:34] In the like long chain of intermediaries, they're the closest to an investor, right? So it makes a lot of sense for them to drive. [10:41] Some of this changed. [10:43] when you said [10:44] that there's a moment that could change the world. And... [10:47] a lot of things have to go right. [10:49] And I'm curious what some of those things are that you feel like need to go right. And how does that relate to your day-to-day at Uniswap? [10:58] Yeah. [10:59] That is my whole day today at Uniswap. That is my whole day today. That's why I love every day here. [11:05] The first thing is blockchains have to get cheaper and faster. [11:08] And that's happening now. Like in the last year, there's so many L2s. [11:13] And there's so much innovation in L2s and innovating in L2s has become much more accessible thanks to the companies that have built stacks that people can use.

[11:21] So that's first, because if it's not cheaper and faster, then it's only better [11:26] if you really, really value transparency or you really, really value having more privacy. And then the second thing that has to change is the user experience. [11:35] So self-custody user experience. [11:38] has to get better. [11:39] That's also come a long way in the last year. [11:42] embedded wallets. [11:43] Teams like Privy are doing a great job making it easy to onboard with an email address. You can choose your security model. [11:49] And then the third thing is we need more stuff to do, and we need more things to buy that are useful to you. [11:56] So new assets. [11:58] and then also assets that can be used in your daily life. [12:02] but can be stored on chain or exchanged on chain. And the last part is where Uniswap has the most [12:08] impact, I think. [12:09] The first two pieces Uniswap can start to integrate in our products. So in our wallet, we've been prioritizing integrating the L2s. [12:17] making it easier for people to get onboarded without having to like buy a lot of gas for their first main net transaction. [12:23] the second category, user experience, [12:25] That's why we built a wallet. [12:28] have built this extension as a sidebar. [12:30] and a lot easier than like a pop-up that feels like it disappears somewhere in your browser. But the third piece of helping [12:38] the market structure. [12:40] of an automated market maker and some of the other stuff we've developed. The third piece of bringing the market structures that are on chain and better than traditional market structures to [12:49] asset creators, [12:51] creators who don't think of themselves as asset creators, but who are creating value.

[12:55] and want to realize that value, that's where we have the biggest impact. And that's only really relevant if you get the first two pieces right. So I'm really excited that I think 2025 is going to feel like it's all about the third category. And there's so, so much. [13:10] that we can enable other people to start to create. [13:14] So there's a lot of [13:17] DeFi. [13:18] trading [13:19] platforms out there. [13:21] I want to hear from you what you think [13:24] sets Uniswap apart. [13:25] from the pack and also within that, when you're thinking about [13:29] 10, 15, 20 years down the line. [13:31] what's the vision for Uniswap and what comes to mind for you? [13:34] I realized this or I forgot one very important thing and what has to change. [13:38] policy. [13:39] So everything I mentioned is like tech and product. [13:43] that makes it feel useful to a person. [13:45] and [13:46] the policy has to evolve so that we're not force fitting. [13:49] Yeah. Today's financial services regulation on top of completely different operations. [13:55] So it's, which to me is also a really exciting thing and a very fun part of working at Uniswap is that it's like an invitation. It's like if you, you know, created YouTube, you get invited to help rethink how intellectual property should work on the internet. But there needs to be an invitation to do that. And so like if we can change the rules so that they achieve the same goals of keeping people safe from fraud, making sure that governments can collect taxes and, [14:18] reducing illicit activity and money laundering, at least making it more traceable. [14:23] than it is in the traditional system. And then finally, like, systemic risk, managing systemic risk, then we have the potential for a clearly better system. But if you have to apply all the way that things are regulated today,

[14:35] their rules are shaped around today's operations and it kills interoperability. It kills your ability. It kills a lot of the ability of having a portable account and self-custody. And those are really [14:47] positive benefits for the system and for people. [14:51] So that has to happen too. - Yeah, and you guys are very much on the front lines of that. - Yeah, we are. And so are many other companies, but it takes, but we are, you know, [15:01] we are getting to your next question. [15:03] We are the leading product company in the world that also builds protocols. [15:08] that also writes smart contracts. [15:10] So that is a big part of what sets us apart is that, [15:14] Our team includes [15:16] a protocols team that has invented the most used DeFi protocols. [15:21] but we also build products. [15:23] And I think having that like user [15:25] exposure, direct experience. [15:28] informs what you do across the whole stack, because you have more of a feedback loop. Well, Uniswap started as an experiment, [15:37] the experiment only becomes more useful. [15:39] if you have direct contact with people. [15:41] use it. [15:42] Yeah, I think one of the things that we've been seeing from you guys is... [15:47] And I think this ties a lot into what you're the third category that you spoke to around needing to have things to do and play with and assets to hold and is really this cultural perspective. [15:56] playbook that you guys are sort of running with. [15:59] You're doing a collaboration with KidZuper. You guys acquired Crypto the Game. Tell us about [16:05] those initiatives and really the larger strategy that plays into sort of this 20-year plan that Dina spoke to.

[16:11] Yeah. [16:12] Well, that is one of the things that makes crypto so special is that it's like intrinsically social. [16:17] Culture and values come upstream of technology, I think. Like, you know, tech doesn't just shape the future. It's the culture and the values, the people who, how it interacts with culture and the values, people [16:26] build it. And so, so one, it's just more fun. [16:30] I can tell you about Kid Super in a second, but it makes what we do more fun, makes what we build more fun. [16:35] for users and our team. But it's by having that cultural relevance is how crypto, I think, can change a person's experience of money. [16:44] You don't want to open [16:46] your Fidelity app, no matter how much better they make it. You know, it's like, it's like, it's a great company. They do a really good job. They've also done a good job making it, their digital products better, but we still have like a different emotional relationship with the services that are just about financial services. And so, [17:06] a big part of Uniswap connecting with culture, whether it's fashion or games. [17:10] is to change the relationship that we all have with value in our lives. [17:15] But the founder, one of the founders of the game, Dylan, put it well. He's like, crypto just makes the internet more fun. It also just means that you have an interaction around the [17:25] something online or on chain in this case. [17:28] Kid Super we did just because Hayden is friends with Colm, the designer and founder of Kid Super. And they've known each other for years. Hayden wears Kid Super, I think, almost every day. Oh, my gosh. Oh, wow. Yes. Yes. [17:40] Yes. And it just seemed like a fun place to start.

[17:43] because they are the kids super team is like [17:46] experimental they like doing new things [17:49] And we also were looking for a great test [17:53] zone to try a pay experience. And so at our small lunch party, we had a pay with the Uniswap Wallet experience. And so we tried to have a product challenge that was part of the partnership in addition to the merch. And then Crypto the Game, we were just so impressed with how the team really connected with so many people. [18:14] and kept people engaged. They deliberately scoped the game to just a few hundred people. [18:20] but people were obsessed with it for the few days they played. Did either of you play? Oh. [18:24] did we play? It was my whole personality. We did a companion podcast with Dylan for this last season. So yes, very, very much in the Crypt of the Game world. Yeah, yeah. What did you like about the game? Oh my gosh, I'm a really competitive person. So the first season I played, I was like, [18:45] really in it to win it. I was like, I am going to buy an apartment. I'm going to win and I'm going to buy an apartment. And do Lulu energy around it. And then second season, we were doing the companion podcast. So I knew... [18:58] we would be targets very early on because everybody was like, you guys have Intel. And I was like, we have no Intel at all. I did stay. I did some maneuvering and did stay a few days longer than everybody knew. Did use the podcast to my advantage in that way. But what's so amazing about crypto is that you meet all of these people online

[19:18] that care about similar things to you and that have a desire to see the world look different in some capacity. I think that's why most people get into crypto and, and, [19:30] then [19:31] you have that shared sort of muscle memory with all of them. And then you have this like crazy thing that you do online for 10 days and you meet all these interesting people and it's so driven by the, [19:42] like actual connection to other people, which [19:44] is what makes me most excited about the technology is like this ability for how it engages into the real world with real people and their actual daily lives and i think crypto the game is like a beautiful picture of how that comes to life for people who are deeply online and spend too much on the time on the internet to actually then like forge relationships that exist in person and i was just at fest and [20:04] there were so many people that it was like oh my god we played we were on the same tribe or like we you know you wanted me off or like whatever and you have this like now fun thing that you get to share with people in a very special way so yeah we had a great i had a great time huge fans yeah one of the only downsides maybe the only downside of the crypto the game to now being part of the uniswap labs team is i don't know if we will be able to play the game i don't know we gotta

[20:34] I want to talk about how you think about bringing [20:38] new users, new people to crypto or how [20:43] Uniswap thinks about meeting new people in crypto. [20:46] It's interesting the way that I've heard you through this interview talk about [20:50] Uniswap [20:51] where you have the protocol, but also this product suite of products that you're [20:55] launching aggressively, we have the Uniswap extension, and then you were speaking to like this payments experience that you're experimenting with. That's giving [21:04] everything app [21:05] type vibes, which I think is really exciting. [21:08] But when I think about sort of the ecosystem of crypto, I wouldn't think of Uniswap as the first place that I'm, it's not a fiat on ramp. Yeah. And so there's a relationship to the traditional exchanges, the centralized exchanges, and then you guys are sort of this one person. [21:21] layer in [21:24] And that's challenging when you're thinking about new users and [21:27] and engaging people who are totally fresh and green to the space. So I'm curious, would love to hear you talk about that a bit. [21:32] Yeah. Our focus is on users who are going to swap. We're going to use our products. And so, [21:38] We are a small team. We're 110 people based in New York, but about half the team is remote. And as a matter of just focus, we only really are reaching out and talking to users [21:50] who will be comfortable with a self-custody on-brain experience as it is right now. And so as our product evolves and crypto evolves, [21:58] we can speak to more people. But for now, we're really more focused on just people who want to be in DeFi, who are curious about who

[22:06] Self-custody speaks to them. But most importantly, I think people use Uniswap if like, you know what Uniswap stands for. [22:11] speaks to them. It's like, [22:13] controlling your assets and your own choices. It's being on chain and on top of decentralized rails that are open. So I think if those values speak to people, then, um, [22:24] come one, come all, but we're not marketing. We're not buying billboards. You know, we're not like marketing to mainstream users because the [22:32] product isn't quite there and we're not, we, you know, I'm so grateful to, you know, [22:38] all that Circle and Coinbase are doing to explain like why crypto to much, much bigger and broader audiences. But I think we got to get through some of the hurdles that we talked about before, which I don't think is like far away. But that we, I think in 2021, the industry got a little bit ahead of itself in terms of the narrative being ahead of the product. No, we didn't do that. A little bit, you know? And understand, like everyone's so excited. There's so much potential. So stoked. So stoked, right? So stoked. And yeah, I just think it's like, if you're going to be [23:08] Thank you. [23:08] people in your life who... [23:11] don't actively trade anything or aren't really adopters of tech to use something that you need to be credible when their first experience is going to feel good. [23:20] I think that the Uniswap wallet now does feel really good even to a new user. Like I'm always onboarding [23:26] people in my life just to show them like this is the thing I do. You know, it's not just a pink unicorn. [23:33] And I think what speaks to people first is like,

[23:37] is self custody. Wait, this is my account. This account goes with me wherever I want it to. And that's a powerful, different paradigm. I think people kind of feel as [23:46] valuable. [23:47] But yeah, right now, I think we're still kind of [23:50] Our marketing team is like six people, you know, and they're amazing. But we're still playing in the area of people who are here for what we stand for. [23:59] and already kind of curious to begin with. [24:01] That makes sense. Okay. I want to talk a little bit about Uniswap extension. Tell us about some of the insights on shipping that product. What has that been like? And what was the motivation there? [24:10] Yeah. Well, the motivation is that it should feel like you just have fewer clicks. Just make it simpler. Getting to like what would it take to then onboard more users to crypto and kind of like bring all these benefits to everybody if you have to download three different apps and connect between them and it pops up in a way that like nothing you use on the internet does. Like not even Honey and the other extensions. Why do I feel like... [24:33] a traditional web crypto self-custody web experience, right? Even they are a little bit more like present with you all the time. So, [24:40] In designing the extension, that was important. Like how can you feel safe and secure and confident that you like aren't clicking on the wrong thing? [24:49] and that you haven't forgotten, lost your place, like kind of forgot where you were. [24:53] And then for an experienced user, we just want it to be a much more seamless swapping experience. [24:58] So we use the sidebar feature that's a new Chrome feature that just [25:02] It sort of like pops up on the side, as you guys have seen, pops up on the side of your browser and like can stay with you and hide. It just feels much more organic. And so you can still have the choice that's part of it.

[25:12] crypto, but have a little bit more of like the comfort that's part of a traditional web to experience and what feels like an account. [25:20] even though it's still only your account, it's not a HudaSwap account. [25:22] Yeah. So it was a lot of fun. How's the reception been? [25:25] I think reception has been really positive. And look, a web extension is a, first of all, if you already use one, it's a high, it feels like a high switching cost. [25:33] Yeah, I get so nervous moving between wallets. [25:36] Totally. [25:37] So it's sort of what is that moment where you're going to catch someone there like, oh, today is the Saturday afternoon where I'm going to migrate all of my assets from this thing I've been using for years, you know? [25:47] And then for new users, I mean, new users are more often coming through mobile now. And so... [25:53] But the adoption has been really strong. And so even despite the fact that we thought it was going to be a little bit more of a long game so far, it's [26:01] It's done really well. [26:03] It's time for a more open, inclusive, and transparent financial system. A system that serves nearly everyone, everywhere, all the time. That's why we love today's sponsor, Kraken. Kraken is a crypto platform that provides a super simple on-ramp to the world of crypto with a 24-7 support team. Crypto transcends physical and imaginary borders. No matter where you are, you can send funds easily and quickly to almost any part of the world. Plus, forget about waiting times and waiting lines. You can send, receive, and trade crypto anywhere near instantly. [26:32] We have a mutual friend in Liz Pang.

[26:56] And she [26:58] has told me that you are very passionate about climate issues. Yeah, I am. And I'd love to hear more just on a personal level what that is for you. [27:07] Yeah. Well, so I started, my first job was as an investor in renewable energy and clean technology. It was at Goldman Sachs during the financial crisis in like their internal hedge fund. [27:17] So I [27:18] Speaking of like the cognitive dissonance we sometimes experience in crypto, people are like, wait, what, Howard, do you think you're changing the world? It was like people were calling Big Golden Sacks of vampire squid on the face of humanity. And I was like, I am investing in solar energy. Like, you know, this is, I do not touch credit default swaps. [27:35] But two problems in my lifetime that I think are most meaningful to me to work on are making the economy work for people. [27:43] And [27:44] fighting climate change. And I've always been interested in like systems and how do you get to the core of the incentives. [27:50] that drive those problems. And so that's why I was investing in more renewable power. [27:56] And then energy storage, but energy storage was even earlier then. [28:00] the thing about climate is that it's such a complex multi-stakeholder problem. Like, [28:06] Crypto touches policy. [28:08] But really it's the policymakers trying to figure out what to do. [28:11] and then try and, and because it's such a new zone, [28:15] There's actually a lot more room, I think, for quick creative impact. [28:21] And also like you're working to disintermediate. [28:24] And I think that's probably different.

[28:26] than climate. Totally. In climate, the problems come everywhere. They're everywhere. It's like buildings and materials as well as – [28:34] emissions obviously, and then all the different kinds of mitigants, whether it's like decarbonization, or like things that are more preventative, like alternative sources of energy. So the problem is so complex. [28:45] And the stakeholders are every, you know, all these, [28:49] every government in the world basically, with different levels of influence and contribution and then impact. [28:55] So all that to say, it's really fun, but it's very exhausting to work on because the level of coordination and collaboration is... [29:03] so high. [29:05] And as in as on the investing side, there's a lot to do, but the projects take a long time. [29:10] So if you're investing in the tech, [29:12] takes years for things to develop. And if you're investing in projects, it takes years for things to get permitted. [29:19] I had an amazing experience in that first job [29:22] I saw an opportunity in state level solar credits that weren't really being used. And so started a door to door residential solar company. [29:31] just [29:32] with my boss. [29:33] at Goldman Sachs. Yeah. And like as part of the company. And then, and we had, we had, and someone else in our, in the fund had invested, it wasn't a fund, but it was the structure kind of like a hedge fund, all Goldman capital. Another team had invested in a door-to-door alarm sales company. And so we, [29:48] took a [29:48] sort of group of people from that company, and they started selling residential solar systems. And then the company went public. [29:55] It was called Bivid Solar and then got acquired.

[29:59] It was really the first door to door residential solar company because the constraints were distribution. And if you went to someone's home, you could explain to them this thing that felt really scary and confusing and hard to implement themselves. But then the other constraint was capital. [30:12] And so if you had a lot of continued access to capital, you could [30:16] do it much faster than individual entrepreneurs who are trying to like [30:21] sell and then raise money, sell and then raise money. I can see that. So that was an amazing experience that had a real impact. And then I was really tired. And so I like went to then switch to FinTech, the other problem that I am really passionate about. [30:34] went back to sustainability and climate risk later [30:37] in 2020. [30:38] and then was focused on like what are the incentives so this was when blackrock [30:43] started focusing a lot on sustainable investing. A lot of governments around the world were trying to create rules to incentivize [30:49] sustainable investing. But the challenge is it's very hard to measure what a sustainable investment is. And it's [30:54] one to collect the data define those things define those things and then [30:58] the third end. [31:00] third to implement. And so [31:03] Yeah, anyway, I loved it. I still care a lot about it, but... [31:08] I need a break. I hear you. What do you think about some of the crypto meets climate projects, tokenized carbon credits, stuff like that? [31:16] Yeah, well, zooming out, part of what I think crypto can make possible for capital markets [31:22] is a lot more real time information. Yeah. [31:26] And then [31:28] the ability as an investor whether you're an institution or an individual to make more informed choices about how you're

[31:34] allocating your capital. [31:37] And so that's sustainability in my mind, it's like a subset of that. It's like trying to be more aware of what you're investing in and its impact on the climate. [31:46] or think about the cost of capital and related to its impactant climate, [31:51] You can only do that more effectively if you have more information. So at a very high level, [31:56] I think it's great to think about intersection between the two. [31:59] I think in practice where it's been applied is mostly like the voluntary carbon markets. [32:03] And the voluntary carbon markets, like I've just had, you know, have a lot of challenges because... [32:09] you know, what's the quality control of whether something is actually offsetting emissions, and then who are the buyers and what are their goals. [32:17] Yeah. The incentives get weird. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's like, I think it's, [32:21] early days, but like [32:22] applaud those people who are trying to take the benefits of crypto and apply it to that market. [32:28] What do you think? [32:29] Sounds like you care about it too. So I was at Cello for a little over a year and we worked a lot with different carbon offset [32:37] tokenization projects and yeah, kind of same [32:40] Same feeling, which is that it's early. And also that the I mean, talk about like antiquated systems. I think that that market has a huge uphill battle to deal with some of the entrenched players that I don't think are willing to give up their. [32:55] Power. Yeah, very [32:57] easily. But I think also an industry that could benefit tremendously from [33:02] like we were talking about before, that disintermediation. And so I am hopeful, but yeah, haven't really seen it yet.

[33:11] Yeah. [33:12] Okay, final question here. Switching gears. [33:15] Hayden tweeted a selfie with you and Mark Cuban. What's that about? [33:20] Mark Cuban is like such an amazing advocate for crypto that like, I know, I think he's invested in some crypto companies or whatever, but he convened this like roundtable with the Biden administration. There's just been pretty limited interaction between the Biden administration and the Biden administration. [33:36] crypto companies. And so I think he was like, this is [33:40] This is getting... [33:41] dark and severe, like let's all have a conversation. So that was at that event. And I felt kind of, I know I never take selfies, but I was like, okay, our team will like appreciate it. And then I like started the selfie chain. So I was like, okay, we were chatting afterwards. I was like, oh, can we get a selfie? And then everyone was like, oh, it's okay now. Oh no. Sorry, Mark Cuban. I'm so sorry. Everybody else didn't want a selfie too. But yeah, anyway, I think Hayden tweeted about what we covered, but we were just like trying to share. Look, [34:11] It's a bummer to be Americans who are trying to do things that you think is good in the world based in New York City and feel like, [34:20] your government doesn't want you here. Yeah. And in the same time, be invited by European governments [34:25] and Asian governments to move. [34:26] Um, yeah. And so we were just sharing our firsthand experience of like, [34:31] "This doesn't make sense. [34:33] And can you please fix it? You're like, there's someone in the room that can do something about it.

[34:41] We don't have to talk about politics, but I'm just, are you feeling hopeful? Who are you voting for? [34:48] How are you feeling about politics? [34:50] Yeah, just everything. [34:52] We could keep it vague. How am I feeling? I mean... [34:57] I... [34:58] I agree with Hayden that I think it's important that crypto is not a partisan issue. Yeah. Because, like, you know... [35:05] Uniswap is the biggest sort of dedicated DeFi company, but we are still a small company. And like we should be spending our time building products and improving users experience and talking to users. It's great to be part of policy, but like if we have to do this every four years or we have to be kind of like constantly, it's just not what technology companies should be spending a tremendous amount of their time doing. You want to kind of like have an initial dialogue, get it right. [35:30] and then go from there. So I really hope that this is an opportunity, like having a change the Democratic ticket. [35:37] and then all of Trump's attention on crypto, I hope it's an opportunity to like [35:41] just to kind of have a reset. [35:43] over the course of the next like weeks, months, [35:45] year. [35:46] Nice. That was a very diplomatic answer. Yeah, wow. I'm like, someone's had some media training. I need to brush up. No, that's, yeah, it's great to hear. MC, thank you so much for coming on. It was so nice to spend some time with you. It's such a pleasure. Thanks for having me. It's great to talk to you guys.