Token Emotion | Steph Alinsug, Seed Club

[00:00] I'm so hesitant to define tokenomics because someday it's going to be like, excuse me, there's nothing. [00:09] Hello, I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. [00:21] Just boy stuff. [00:21] Hi [00:22] What's Boys Club? [00:24] Boys Club is a social DAO. [00:28] Media Company. [00:29] and product studio. [00:32] What do we think? [00:33] We've been, we've been trotting it out now a couple of times. We've been, we've been rolling it out. I rolled it out at an event that I was on a panel for last night. How did it feel? Um, long for being honest, um, long, but good. It feels good. It feels right for right now. Um, yeah. [00:52] But I have a question for you. What's a social down? [00:56] I mean, I think it's completely made up. So we get to define what it is. I mean, I think... [01:06] Your network is your net worth. [01:09] I saw this on Twitter the other day. I was like, wow, I got to say this. It's so dumb. Not that it's all about money and net worth. That's not like what we're optimizing for. So that seems kind of silly in light of – [01:19] what we're really about at voice club. But yeah, I think it's about like the, the social element is a really important part of voice club. And that shows up certainly at our events. And that shows up,

[01:33] in the relationships that people have with one another. Yeah. Regardless of whether or not boys club is like there to intermediate. And so I think that, [01:42] As and when like the social element, like actual friendships and like people getting together and connection and hanging out. And sure, that translates to networking and people getting jobs and whatever. [01:55] I don't know, at the heart of it all is just... [01:58] human connection, right? Oh my God. Wow. I love it. Going deep. Here we are. Two minutes in. Let's go human connection. I don't know. That's great. I love that answer. Great. And then if you're new here, this is our podcast. We have a newsletter you can subscribe to in the show notes. That's really fun. We have a discord you can apply to. We're launching products. We have a consulting arm. We got lots going on. We also do events and we had some events last week. [02:28] Cheers, man. [02:29] And for most of the people that are in Boise Club that aren't in New York, I'm starting to feel bad. I'm starting to feel bad. I want to do more things elsewhere. So just know that's on our mind. It's on our mind. It's on our heart. It's on our mind. [02:42] It is. And it's weighing there. [02:46] So anyway, yeah, two events in New York could not have been more fun, especially the Han. We had a pizza party with Han Ventures and we are Grand Street Pizza, just drinking natural wine and eating pizza and the most interesting people hanging out. Talking policy with Tomica.

[03:06] I was like a serious policy expert. [03:10] He's extremely legitimate and – [03:14] He was talking to us about what's going on, and I was like, man. [03:18] Tomeka, shout out Tomeka. [03:21] Along with a DTR, define the relationship, salon style. [03:26] with evan mcmullin from disco it was great anyway we had a great this is not what's happening in our dow but that's a little bit about boys club and we're happy you're here yeah we are happy you're here um [03:36] Yeah, this show was, we got kind of raw with the feelings. So I'm excited for people to stick around and listen to that. But first, on the show this week, we had Steph Elinzig. She is Crypto Honey on Twitter. You may have seen her. And she is the media team steward at Sea Club. And man, what a really, really nice conversation with her. A really fire conversation. [04:06] She is, we just talked about like leadership, like Dow leadership, the emotional work that that is failing. It was really- She's very thoughtful and is clearly a great person to work for and with. That was the sense that I had leaving it. [04:26] Yeah, absolutely. So loved it. Loved it. 10 out of 10. It's definitely worth it. So listen to that. And then after that, we have a check-in on what's happening in our DAO. And we talked about tokenomics. Tokenomics. And it's...

[04:42] Hard. [04:43] It's tough and it's complicated and it's challenging work. And emotional. And emotional. Very emotional. It is emotional. And then we had a feelings check-in about... [04:55] over committing ourselves over committing ourselves yeah which we're doing stretched too thin and right yeah um but it's great it's a fun episode it was it was fun uh quick word from our sponsors yes [05:08] Okay. [05:09] Moonpay.com. Moonpay is so easy to buy and sell crypto. You can even use Apple Pay, which honestly, when you can use Apple Pay, it's very dangerous for me. It's so dangerous. Let's stock up on some ETH. Exactly. Let's go, baby. Buy the dip. So if you're looking to buy the dip or if you're looking to buy, [05:32] Sell and buy digital currencies. MoonPay.com. [05:35] We love you. It's so fast. It's really fast. It's so fast. It's actually incredible. [05:39] And it's really well built. Do you feel that way? Like, yes. [05:46] As someone who's built products before, I'm like, wow. [05:50] There's been an investment in this and it's been good. So anyway, check it out. Okay, let's get into it. [06:03] Okay. Hi, Steph. Welcome to the show. Hi, Steph. Hi, guys. This is really fun. Honestly, like the smiles, we're all very happy to be here and I love to see it.

[06:13] We love all of our guests, of course, but we're particularly excited about how cute. Do you say that to everyone? If you do, that's totally okay. [06:22] We haven't. We haven't. We actually haven't. Okay, so we're going to do explain the tweet with Steph, a.k.a. Crypto Honey, on Twitter. There was a lot to choose from. We had a lot of juice coming in. So honestly, it was hard to choose. But we picked one that felt... [06:41] particularly potent for us after this week that we've had, which we'll talk about. So I'm going to read the tweet and we'll get started. So, [06:52] DAO leadership exists in the tension between vision, storytelling, and operations, and [06:59] How we navigate this tension is the heartbeat of organizational culture. First, let me start off by asking Natasha, what's your level of comprehension on this tweet? My level of comprehension is high, which is great because I'm in the midst of this right now. But I think my main question as I was looking at this tweet and just thinking about... [07:18] thinking about it and thinking about your perspective on things and sort of my life right now, one of the main questions I had for you is like, [07:26] What distinct about this is, what is distinctly like Dow about that? Because I do feel that in my, like I work in a Web2 job. [07:35] 40 hours a week and at a startup. And that feels really true of my job there, too, of like, how do you inspire people? And how are you a good leader in all of these different areas when it's like,

[07:47] you're, you're getting someone to like upload a CSV file, you know? And so like that, that, that tension, I'm like there, I do think there's something distinct about DAO that I haven't been able to articulate. And so I'm curious where your head is at with that. Yeah. I mean, right. There's a part of me that's like, I'm like, no, there's nothing distinct about DAOs with this, right? It's like, this is just an evergreen, like human problem of, of like how we're in relationship to [08:17] My experience of [08:19] Dell leadership recently is, you know, as we're, as we're like consistently trying to progressively decentralize while also maintain a sense of guardrails and, and vision and like, you know, a sense of where we're going with that place that we're going, it's like, it's like both emerging and then like disappears for a hot second. [08:49] keep the people around me just like alive and excited for those like consistent pivots that are like a little whiplashy. And yeah, and so, you know, within, again, like within DAOs, like the idea is that like, like my, my, my ideal mindset. [09:05] version of leadership and DAO relationship is that everyone has the opportunity to move into a leadership space. And so I feel like in Web2, in my experience in corporate, like that was, you know, that was somewhat present, but typically like either they were like, there were clear paths for people to move up, right? So like, okay, you're a coordinator, you're a manager, you're a director, you're a VP, or you just like leave and go somewhere else and

[09:35] however we want. Like, you are clearly, this person, you're clearly demonstrating... [09:40] make a sense of ownership and vision in this work stream that you're both like creating in real time. And so there's nothing here that says you can't move into something with more responsibility or more leadership. [09:55] And and yeah, and that's that's like a little it's a little that design space is like a little intense, you know, because who owns that design space? Do we own it? Do they you know, do they own it? Do we all own it? And how do we navigate it? Yeah. [10:09] How do we navigate it? How do we navigate it? Who is in charge? We need someone to tell us. Totally. I mean, I think that, yeah, that feels very... [10:21] I think that's a really great way of putting it, is that the possibility for leadership within DAOs is... [10:28] endless and messy in a way that like you don't get in traditional, uh, [10:35] in corporations and like ways of organizing people. And, and, [10:39] It presents... [10:41] And for people who are very clearly and distinctly leaders, it presents a [10:46] of a real tension because all you want is for people to feel ownership and leadership and a sense of buy-in and vision. And at the same time, like, how do you balance that with a larger story around, um, [11:01] what the goals are, [11:03] when you don't know what the goals are and they're changing every day. And like those difficulties, I feel, um,

[11:08] very much within the work that we're doing at Boys Club. [11:12] But I do think there's this... [11:14] Because of the whiplash I have of like traditional job and then DAO every day, the upside is so clear to me on like how much people feel a sense of possible, like what is possible when people have that type of inspiration in their work. [11:33] Dina, what do you think? Yeah, I mean, I'm mostly like, can you talk a little bit about how C Club is structured so I can get a sense for like where you guys are currently defining lines around the work and the day to day? [11:48] - Yeah, totally. So we've got this co-creator structure, that's Nicole and Jess, as you know. And then we have our working group stewards. And so there's overlap there between co-creator and steward, right? Because Nicole, even though has this role of co-creator, is also stewarding accelerator and cultivation and community as well. And so the stewards, our role is really to, you know, [12:16] to sort of, like, provide these containers, and then contributors are, like, kind of in those containers, like, you know, sort of bouncing around and, yeah, and, like, executing and facilitating. So, and also, like, even on the stewardship level, like, I'm still, you know, executing on a day-to-day as well, right? Like, we're all very much, like, involved in the day-to-day operations as well. Yeah, yeah.

[12:39] And then – but it's sort of like a meta role because you're doing that for C-Club, the DAO and the organization. And then the remit of C-Club is to – [12:50] to help facilitate that on behalf of the community of Taos that are going through your accelerator. So you're both like... [12:58] figuring out how to build the plane for yourselves and then also trying to like help shepherd this big group of people who are trying to figure out for themselves as well. Yeah. Yeah. And exactly. And like, it's, [13:13] I think that that's what makes Seed Club so unique because half the – [13:18] Half the time that we're having conversations about how we are coordinating as a team and as a DAO, it's like – [13:27] it's like we're engaging in these like little, um, like macro or sorry, micro experiments of coordination. And then at the same time, we're like, we're this, we're like also trying to support other folks in also engaging in like micro forms of experiments. Right. And, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's right to your point, like building the plane as we're flying it. I don't know. There's probably some other like wild, like Arab, like arrow metaphor here with like other planes or like two or like, I don't know, two planes or something, lots of planes. [13:57] Oh my God. How every conversation just finds itself at Top Gun. Just like, so really. Yes. Okay. Well, I'd love to dig in specifically. There's so much overlap between obviously how Seed Club is structured and Boys Club in the sense of like your stewards are our guild leads and like that structure. And so your specific area of leadership is within the media environment.

[14:21] arm of Seed Club. And obviously, we have so much we could talk about there. But I'd love for just to hear around like your thinking and vision for what it means to lead [14:31] Media Etsy Club. [14:32] Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, I mean, I'm, yeah, so, you know, within leading, within leading media, obviously, there's like, you know, we have to, we have to lead on our explicit media strategy. And so that's, to me, that's like, [14:46] And that's almost like the easy part. It's like, oh, yeah, we've got four work streams. You know, we've got editorial brand productions and social publicity. And like each work stream has a dedicated sort of like lead or person who who like executes on that work, brings forth ideas and leads the growth of those areas. [15:16] and like how are we how are we in relationship to one another and how are we actively um engaging in like a bi-directional coaching relationship where like i like like i just i desire for everyone on the media team to move into greater and greater leadership and like to eventually get to a place where like i'm just like unneeded and that like this team is um it's just like actively engaging and facilitating the work themselves and and actually this week um [15:41] So we're diving into Q4 at Z Club, a really big quarter for us. And in particular, the media team and my work, we're going to go embark on this kind of big new initiative. We're going to incubate this new idea. And so as part of that, I've had to sort of say to the media team, all right, y'all.

[16:06] here we go. Like, y'all know what the, like we've, we've, we've like put in the, like last quarter, we established all the workflows that we needed to establish. Like, um, y'all know what the strategy is, like, go do it. Um, and so this week was the first week that I was not at our weekly media sync and it was just the three, uh, media team members and it felt so good. Um, yeah, it felt, it felt so good. And just like, and you know, the way that we're, the way that we're structuring it now, it's like, I still have my hour long one-to-ones with each individual team member. [16:36] And I've said, you know, in those one-to-ones, like, let's talk specifically about your work stream. What can I do to unblock your work? What clarity do you need? Like, do you need support and prioritizing? Because our work is also very cross-functional. We crash into the other working groups a lot, too. But then in the actual weekly, the media weekly sync, I'm like, that's, that's, [16:55] y'all space. Like, y'all have your working relationships. Like, y'all do it how you need to do it. Figure out the ways in which you have dependencies on one another. And yeah, like, do your thing. So I... [17:08] That involves quite a lot of trust. Like you, you've clearly like gotten to a point with the, the people who you're working with where you're, you trust them to take on more responsibilities and leadership in that way. And I think like, there's a little bit of conflict for me in that because Dow, Dow, [17:25] at... [17:27] What makes DAOs interesting is coordination at scale. The true innovation of it is somewhere around there, I think. And in order for that to happen,

[17:39] that feels a little bit in conflict with you as the central steward, like knowing these people and trusting them to sort of, [17:47] understand the vision and take the work and like go and move it forward in some way and i mean it's the same thing at boys club we like it's it's centralized and it's like very centralized in that way um and i just like wonder if you ever feel like like what's the point when that can start to change and it can start to feel like scale is is more possible and here's one example for us with natasha and i and boys club we had um [18:15] like another group come in and want to start something in a region that like in Singapore. I've never been to Singapore. I have no plans on going to Singapore. I don't know anything about Singapore, frankly. And, and they, and this group came in and they were like, we want to do Boys Club Singapore. We have this idea. They have this whole vision, whatever. [18:31] And, yeah. [18:32] It like... [18:33] it starts to take, just because naturally, things start to take a slightly different shape when they're, the further out from center they are. And that geographically is very far out from center, but, and also, like, we don't know them as well and whatever. So, I just, like, and, you know, we're still working our way through it, but, like, curious what your perspective is on that and Dow and sort of how you're approaching it. Yeah. I mean, that's the core question. And this question [19:03] very alive for me this week. [19:06] You know, I, so... [19:07] I've, like, thinking about my past experience, being, you know, leading teams in corporate, leading teams, like, and also in my own, like, boutique studio, and, you know, this idea of trust –

[19:26] First of all, it takes time to cultivate, right, which, you know, and I think there's also a sense of like, like release from our, our parts as leaders of like, yeah, you know, this person, this team, they're going to make decisions that I might disagree with. I might not align with the exact way in which they're executing. And also I might learn something new and like have my mind changed. [19:56] to having your mind changed is something that I, [19:59] just me personally, I just like feel very excited about. Um, and then, you know, this actually, I, I'm, I, I hate the, like, this makes me think of parenting thing because it's like, that's like a weird, like, um, like can be like a paternal way to think about leadership. But, but no, truthfully, like just, I, I think a lot about how I show up in my parenting and how, um, there are just times where I'm like, oh yeah, right now I'm like projecting my own, my own stuff on my kid. And like, I have my, I have these expectations of my kid and it's like, [20:29] Like this kid's going to experience the world as they experience it. I have actually no idea of how they're experiencing it. Right. Cause there's like their own human. Um, and so how can I, how can I create enough space for them to fail and to be disappointed and to like do their thing? And then also to teach me like, Hey, you know, like, yeah, I'm going to like, all I want to do right now is like alter this physical space with like masking tape and, and like pipe cleaners. And like, you just got to deal with it, mom.

[20:59] of teams, like, yeah, I think that there does come a point that you have to, like, [21:06] Like the way that I think about it, it's like, okay, you have a team, you have, you have an idea, um, like, [21:13] if you have conviction for that idea and you demonstrate to me the level of conviction you have, why, why it matters, um, [21:20] I will trust you to execute on that. I need you to then own the consequence of whatever happens. And so if it goes... [21:28] you know, poorly or whatever, like be ready to own that. I will back you up. Um, and I think that's a really, that can be a hard thing, you know, especially if something doesn't go poorly or especially if something goes right. And then you're like, I hate when people are right. [21:45] Wow. I, I honestly feel like I'm learning a lot. I feel like I, I want, maybe can I come work for you? You sound like a great boss. Um, but I, I'm a great mom. Um, but, um, but, [21:58] That's... [21:58] No, I think that's a really good lesson because I think they're... [22:02] Oftentimes, um... [22:05] when I think about [22:07] Boys club and [22:08] And it as like an entity and like this living thing, I take so much responsibility for what happens to it. Like I take it on. [22:16] Dina and I like wholly almost in like a really intense sort of way and like unhealthy.

[22:31] There's allowing for space in a healthy way to give people ownership and [22:37] with the consequence, like that consequence piece is really important because I think I often do not think about that. I think the consequence is my mind and yours to execute on. [22:49] And, um, I think that's a really limiting way to look at it. And also it's really inspiring for me to be like, Oh, if, if someone else can own the consequence of it, that's really freeing for me to be like, go try your thing. Like do it within the confines of, you know, the world that we've created here. But like that allows for so much more space for people to design within. Yeah. And I think, I don't know if you can hear the little child at my door right now. They sound [23:19] And please. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think this idea of like allowing people to fail and to fumble is really. Yeah, I think to me, that's like been my biggest problem. [23:34] lesson of quote unquote leadership. And I think just life too, it's like allowing people to be okay with disappointment. And I think about that at the intersection of parenting too, like, it's really important for my kids to be disappointed and to like, not have to, not have to like run in and try and solve that disappointment. It's like, yeah, disappointment is a really important thing to have and to experience. And I think about this idea of like failing well, like I, and mostly I

[24:04] or of trying things on that, you know, like, like, how can we, how can we as people in leadership positions create the conditions for people to fail? Well, like, like to your point, Natasha, like, how can we, how can we make it like safe enough for them to try on, to take a risk, to be courageous and then to be able to own the consequence of that and then to also back them up in that. Right. And to, and to back them up. [24:25] both in their success, but then also with candor. Yeah. And within, yeah, within a quote unquote failure. I use that, that word lightly. Yeah. I mean, it, [24:34] Sorry, go ahead. Well, I just like, tell me, I want to hear more about what's alive in your head. [24:41] I'm like, I'm learning so much too. [24:45] Well, I was just going to say, like, it's interesting because I think DAOs are... [24:49] Oh, [24:50] Like there's like this entrepreneurial journey of starting a DAO. But then I, what I've been learning is like, [24:57] what is... [24:58] Within that is all these other sort of entrepreneurial endeavors within that. And, [25:05] It's... [25:06] Mm-hmm. [25:07] Having both Dean and I have been in that position before and like having startups and learning sort of the ups and downs of those things. [25:15] There is... [25:17] How productive failure can be is a lesson that took a lot of failing to get to. [25:27] but it also like led to some success and led to some things that worked. And, um, and so in the sort of,

[25:35] vision of Boys Club, I think there's so much more opportunity when you allow for entrepreneurship to happen within – [25:42] I so much rather design for a space where people want to launch things within the world of Boys Club and within the sort of brand and community that we have. That turns into a really interesting space. [25:54] business and world. And I think it's like, how do you have how do you provide a safety for for both winning and losing? And yeah, it just fits within like your vision of leadership that I find I've been really inspiring. [26:09] Yeah, I feel like what you're sort of pointing to is like this idea of – [26:15] Um, [26:16] of being resilient in failure. And that feels like, yeah, one of the hardest life lessons that I've, I'm learning, um, and continue to, we'll continue to learn to the, for the rest of my life. Um, yeah, [26:31] But that resilience in failing both personally, but also having it apply at sort of an organizational level. And I feel like when I start to think about that, when I think about like – [26:42] The Dow or Boys Club or the brand or whatever, like whatever, or C Club, whatever we're talking about. [26:49] being resilient to failure, [26:54] resilient in failure that, um, [26:57] That does feel like something that is more possible when you are like – [27:03] I'm... [27:04] decentralized sort of thing. And that feels like...

[27:08] that that sort of like anti-fragility feels more possible in, [27:15] Web3 style organizations, DAOs, ultimately, versus... [27:20] like the centralized leadership in C-Corps. So I think that that is exciting. Now, do I feel that like in my bones for boys right now? No. Like I feel like we're – [27:30] like, you know, I'm very scared of the surface area of failure, you know, and like, I feel like it's there all the time and it would be like, [27:40] You just have the fears and anxieties around it. But I think it is directionally an interesting place to be headed towards where it's like, how do we... [27:51] Even if we do fail in this one area, how is it shored up in these other places so that we're continuing to show up? And I don't know. I just feel like that's like... [28:00] You've unlocked something for me in this conversation. Yeah, totally. I feel grateful. [28:04] Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, for me, the failure piece, too, like, so my toxic trait is whenever I'm in a moment of crisis or conflict, I just start to storytell to, like, people. [28:19] the total like failure of nation states. Like, it's just like everything just like, you know, it's like, it's like people, people leave, like all of a sudden everyone realizes I'm a fraud and like all this stuff. Right. Yeah. Um, and, and then I have to like, kind of like, you know, pull myself back. I'm like, all right. You know, my, my therapist is always like, what's the evidence that that's going to happen? I'm like, well, okay. Like my imagination, my imagination. Yeah, exactly. Like, are you gaslighting me right now?

[28:49] But, yeah, like, you know, but I think about how we can create, and this relates to failing well, like, how can we create small and, like, low-risk, like, places for failure and mistakes to kind of, like, rep how we are in those moments? And I think about that with our team, like... [29:09] It's really important for us to have just like little micro moments of conflict and tension to like rep how we move through that. So that when the inevitable, like big rumble comes that we have all these reps under our belt. Man. Smart. That is really, like, honestly, I'm like vision boarding needs to happen after this. [29:30] So let's talk about conflict and let's talk about tension because it is [29:35] I feel like it's like even more present in a Tao structure where it's like flat and there's like all these people and it's so human. [29:45] There's more... [29:49] Certainly more surface area for conflict and tension than in other areas of [29:53] business that I've been in. And I'm like, we have sort of this like, oh, like just all feelings are fine. Like, and but even just this week have sort of been confronted by like, maybe that actually isn't the best way. Like, I don't know, we're sort of like working through something currently. This is very accurate. And I'm just curious, like what you feel like, [30:14] Like what's been your approach to sort of conflict resolution in – [30:18] the Tao,

[30:20] structure and within your team and tensions and like how, how do you approach it? [30:24] I mean, I don't know. Yeah. Like I'm, I'm actually perfect at it and I'm going to get a book. Yeah, literally. Exactly. That's what I really wanted to hear. I'm like, tell us exactly how to do it. No, the most frustrating thing too is my, my life prior to, um, coming to web three, I spent, um, yeah, I spent a significant amount of time in like the transformative justice space and like, like trained mediator, like, [30:48] done all the different modalities of conflict resolution. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, okay. And I come here today telling you I know nothing. So. Okay. Okay. [30:58] No, but seriously, like I, yeah. [31:02] Thank you. [31:03] My take on conflict, truthfully, which is like the most frustrating take, is like, [31:09] Thank you. [31:10] Each, how you, how you move through conflict, like, is so contextual. Like, who is, who is it with? What are the, what are the current circumstances? What are the, like, exacerbating factors? Did you get enough sleep that night? Like, did you, like, are you just unfed? You know, like, are you hungry? Like, and, you know, even I think about the amount of conflict my partner and I go through and where both of us come from. [31:35] this, yeah, just like conflict, you know, world of thinking. And so we get into, we have a lot of rich conflict and each time it's different, you know, each time we learn something new about conflict, even though we've been in so many small versions of conflict together. And, yeah, so right, when I think about it at Seed Club, the thing that we're actively in practice of right now, you know, we've done the work to feel like we have the psychological safety as a team,

[32:05] level, and I think we're continuing to cultivate that down throughout the wider contributor base. [32:12] you know, practicing saying the thing is like, [32:16] So... [32:17] And it's so risky and also so courageous. And I was just telling another team member this earlier this week, actually, that like, you know, you're in that when you're in a conversation with someone and you feel it, you can like, you're like, this is the thing. I'm feeling the thing. And like, there's like an opportunity for me to say the thing. And for whatever reason, you're like, don't do it. And you just, you don't do it. You know, like, I don't want to be too much. I don't want to rock the boat, whatever, all the stories we tell ourselves. And I was telling this team member, I was like, I want you to, if you can, just like [32:44] Whatever level of risk you're comfortable with, try saying the thing. And also be ready for whatever the consequences. It could be great. It could be terrible. But just be ready. But practice saying the thing. Because the more you practice those reps of saying the thing, you'll learn more about [32:58] You know, you'll be able to read the room, you know, more next time. You'll always have lessons. And so that's the thing I'm really trying on is like saying the thing. [33:07] Wow. [33:08] I love it. I really, I honestly, it couldn't, it couldn't be more apt. Like, we like, well, cause here's the thing is that like, I think that there's what, what, what I'm sort of bringing from this is like, [33:23] Thank you. [33:24] Natasha and I are very practiced at that together. And this is now a therapy session. So welcome to therapy. This is here we are. I have no idea how Web3 fits into this, if at all. But this is where we are now. And there's no turning back. So Natasha and I are very practiced at that between our between the two of us where it's anything goes, just say it and like,

[33:46] air it and just it it's worse inside than out and like no matter what is the circumstance or or what the thing is that you're going to say um and [33:58] And I think that, like, that has been a product of, like, many years. And, like, just a lot of trust that, like, I know Natasha's always going to continue to show up. And she knows that in me, too. Like, no matter – [34:10] what it is that we need to say. And so, and I think that like, [34:14] I, okay. Bring it back to Dallas in the Dow world. Like, [34:17] Um, [34:19] especially with our wider pool of contributors. It's like, [34:22] 40 people. I don't know them at all. And as Boys Club grows and as we do this sort of like coordination at scale experiment where it's like just bigger, potentially bigger and bigger, bigger. Oh, maybe not. I don't know. Maybe the Dow just like always has a ceiling. But like I can see a world where it's a very big business. And I just like, how do you instill that [34:43] Like I can't do that one-on-one, right, with everyone, but like – and I also don't know them. I also don't have that years of trust or whatever, but like – [34:50] How do you instill that in the culture in a way that's really authentic and not just like toxic, radical candor? Because I feel like that's like a risk too, you know, where – [35:00] And so I don't know. That's like, I also think there's like, um, [35:05] I have found there has been [35:07] moments within our even our core team that's like 15 people where I'm like wow I am being [35:14] really transparent and really open and I,

[35:18] this was earlier days, like these people actually don't know me. And like, they might be hearing something without a knowledge of like, [35:25] my character and my intention and like all of this stuff that it would, [35:30] not land in the same way if you didn't know me. And like, there's a real risk in doing that over and over and over again with a larger and larger group of people for them to hear something and not have a sense of where my heart is at or like where my intentions are at that could be taken and construed and heard in a different way. And you're taking on, I've felt like, oh, wow, there's a transparency, even in the podcast with the way that Dina and I talk about things. There's a [35:57] this transparency comes at a risk and like that feels a little scary sometimes, but it's also like, I have a deep conviction of like this type of leadership. So yeah, I'm just, I'm curious what you think about that. Oh my gosh. I mean, what do I think about that? It's like every, yeah. I mean, everything resonates so much. Like I, you know, so at seed club, um, you know, Jess, Jess and I work really closely together and we definitely have that kind of relationship and, um, [36:21] where he, I really appreciate it from him where I like show up and I like send him this like, you know, 12 minute long rambling voicemail about the question of leadership. And his response is like, okay, Steph, go figure it out. I'm like, well, okay. Like, um, no, but, but, you know, and I don't want to, Hey Jess, I don't want to sell you short here. Um, no, and there are times when like, you know, he offers this like really incredible coaching and, um, and we get into like long rambling things about leadership. But in those moments, I kind of appreciate that because

[36:51] Because what he's essentially saying is like, yeah, welcome to the show. I trust you to figure it out. You know what I mean? Totally. And I think, and I've been... There's a lot of love in that, actually, that he's giving back to you in that moment. Yeah. A lot. And in some ways, it's a sense of permission to go figure it out. And so, I've learned a lot from that when I think about how, what I hear you all sort of getting at is like, how do you fractalize that culture out in a way that's like not toxic, right? Yeah. Because we all have been in... [37:19] toxic work cultures where, you know, it's just totally NGMI. And yeah, you know, I think... [37:28] So there's two things for me, right? Like I've come... [37:30] and maybe, maybe this is toxic. I don't think it is, but I've come to the place where I just, people are going to experience me the way they experience me. And like, I can't, I have no control over that. And it's, it's like, [37:43] a really poor use of my energy to try and like, you know, depending on the context of the relationship, it's a really poor use of my energy to try and like, you know, [37:53] convince people of what otherwise, right? And at the same time, I think that [37:59] If you have that level of curiosity in you, I was just, I was just actually talking to, um, Toby Shorn about this last night too. Just like, if you have that, if you have that level of curiosity in you, um, [38:11] to like... [38:12] Yeah, be like, how are you experiencing me? Like, you know, and be willing to like... [38:17] Take it. Hear it. Oh, my God. Yeah. I think that that I think that that's a really critical thing to. Yeah. To practice.

[38:27] Yeah. Wow. [38:29] Well, Steph, wow. This is not the direction I thought the session would go. I thought we were going to talk like Dow Media, and I was like, oh. But the emotional labor that is leadership was not on the list, but I love it. So to wrap us, I do want to hear about what are you really excited about in this space? It can be about – it can be – [38:52] Blue sky thinking, but like, what is something that like, you know, gets you energized to, to do the hard work of, of leadership every day? [38:59] Yeah. Yeah. Two things. I mean, the whenever like whenever whenever I'm seeing the team just like get into a state of flow. I'm like like we've been we've been trying on these these weekly contributor hours at C Club. [39:29] like do just like some little activity or whatever. And, um, we recently have, typically I've been hosting them, um, which is, which is fine. Like I'm fine to do it. And I also just get bored of myself. So, um, we've, we've now, uh, moved it into a place where the contribute, other contributors are hosting. And it's so fun because it's like, I would have never done this. And this is like, so juicy. Um, and then we also do, um, uh, something called club talk where just sort of

[39:59] topic and we talk about sort of see-close POV on it and those are really rich. But yeah, but the thing that I get excited about is in those moments seeing – [40:08] contributors just like come to life and feel like they have... [40:12] I feel like the space is theirs because it is. That gets me really excited. And I pay really close attention. I'm like, how can we continue to do that? And then also, yeah, I mean, Web3 Media. I feel like I'm like Koopa, but it's not music NFTs. It's Web3 Media. [40:30] I'm just going to tweet Web3 Media, and people are just like, it goes viral. And I'm like, why, guys? Literally, I have said nothing. [40:38] But it excites me, for sure. So that's awesome. [40:42] Well, thank you so much for coming on. This is so fun. Thank you, Steph. Yeah, we'll have to have a follow-up conversation on Web3 Media on another pod sometime. [40:48] I mean, yeah. Thank y'all for having me. Y'all are gems. This has been so fun. [41:00] So what's happening in our Dow this week? [41:03] We are talking about tokenomics. [41:06] Yeah, I... And... [41:08] Go ahead. So... [41:09] It's actually not token. Well, it's a, it's, it's tokenomics. [41:13] It's one aspect of tokenomics. [41:16] Oh, great. This is news to me. Yeah, I know. We've been calling it tokenomics. We've been calling the work that we've been doing over the past couple of weeks, or months, actually, tokenomics. [41:24] But then you want to know how I found out that it's not exactly tokenomics? [41:28] Wow. [41:29] Kevin Milwaukee tweeted. Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no. Kevin Milwaukee tweeted something that was like... Put us in our place. What? He put us in our place. No, no, no. He tweeted something that was like...

[41:40] Like... [41:41] Impact DAOs need to learn how tokenomics works. Basically, it was a tweet that basically said something like that. And I'm like, oh, shit. [41:49] Is Kevin Iwaki subtweeting us? Like... [41:52] That would be so raw. And so I slid into his DMs and I was like, hey, Kevin, are you so tweeting us? I just asked him straight up. And he was like, oh, my gosh, no, not at all. Like. [42:01] you guys are building public, blah, blah, blah. But then I was reading through his thread of people who responded to that tweet, and one woman was like, [42:09] oh, you must have listened to the same layer zero that I did, which I just have to feel like that's referring to us. [42:15] But anyway. [42:19] Oh my gosh. I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe she was talking about something else. Anyway, tokenomics is what we're talking about today. [42:25] Oh, I now, oh my gosh, now I want to go around. Okay, I'll send you the tweet. You know that I love to respond to that type of stuff. I love to, and not that she's trolling us, but like, I love to... [42:35] poke a bear on this. Okay. Um, I don't, I won't because you're always like, don't do it. But like, I'm always like, Oh, I have a great retort. And you're like, don't, don't, don't, don't. Yeah. Just rise above. Um, so anyway, tokenomics is what we're talking about today. And I, [42:49] Tokenomics, here's what I've learned. [42:51] Tokenomics refers to the entire... [42:54] machine around the token, including like, is how it's, is it deflationary and how, what the mechanics of for how it's distributed and what drives the value? Like it's the whole world of the token. That makes sense. We are focusing right now on, I suppose, token allocation or token distribution, which is one sort of narrow facet of tokenomics. So I just don't want you, you going around town talking about tokenomics and,

[43:21] Okay, first of all, excuse me, ma'am. We've been going around town. We've been going around town. We've totally been going around town saying tokenomics. So don't. [43:29] We're talking about token distribution. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Token distribution. And basically... [43:36] I mean, I think it's token distribution, but I also think the way that we've been approaching this work, which has been... [43:44] unbelievably challenging and so unenjoyable if i'm being quite honest yeah the tldr on our tokenomics journey so far is don't do it yeah zero out of ten stars do not recommend do not recommend many notes [43:57] I think that the way that we have been thinking about it is like, where are like, where's the value of Boys Club coming in? Where's like the cost centers of Boys Club coming in? Like all of these things that do relate to... [44:10] the health of [44:12] the value of the business. So I think like the last week, the conversations have been very much about allocation, but getting to that point of how we're thinking about it and why we've designed it the way we've designed it has been with the intention of, [44:28] of looking at the business as a whole, looking at the Dow as a whole, and trying to figure out where's their value here and where can we continue to pump into that. So I do think we actually have been thinking about it more holistically. [44:40] Okay, so we're just going to talk about this in broad strokes because... [44:44] Of all the reasons. And we have team members we want to talk to about it. There's still lots of comms around it. Very much in flight. Oh, my God. The plane is being built while we're flying it. So, yeah, we're going to go real high level here.

[45:01] Um, [45:02] And yeah, for lots of different reasons. OK, so the overall structure looks like this. [45:10] from what I understand, by looking at things, the token allocation, the token distribution of communities like Friends and Benefits, for example, [45:18] between [45:20] Uh, [45:21] I'd say 20% and 40%. [45:25] of the overall token allocation. [45:30] is [45:31] sort of held back for [45:34] team advisors, early contributors. [45:38] Um, [45:39] basically like a core group of people who are working on whatever project or protocol. [45:43] The remaining tokens, so that's going to be between, let's call it 80% or 60% of the token, a lion's share of the tokens, a lion's share of the tokens. [45:52] go into basically a treasury. They go into sort of a community treasury. [45:58] And so that preliminary split is – [46:03] a really important distinction for how, [46:08] Just this whole tower world is different. Whereas in early stage startups, [46:12] Like if we were, if it was just like a C-Corp or whatever, like, [46:15] Um, [46:17] a majority of the [46:19] equity and [46:20] Just for total clarity sake, this is not Apple's. [46:25] to Apple's equity. It's not at all what we're referring to here, but just as example,

[46:32] in an early stage startup, the lion's share of the [46:35] of the equity would go towards [46:37] the founders, I suppose, and... [46:40] And that's really different in this DAO structure where the majority of the value – [46:46] is in this community treasury. [46:50] That's the first difference in distinction. Anything you want to add to that? [46:53] Yeah, I would just say... [46:57] I didn't know that when I started voice club. [47:01] I legitimately like didn't know that. I was like, it's community owned. And I was like, I don't really know what that means. And then we learned that along the way, which has been interesting. But I think one of the things that, [47:14] I didn't realize that it's different from early stage. [47:19] traditional startups and a DAO is that treasury is sort of like, [47:25] an operating budget. Like the way that somebody, as we've been having conversations around this and like basically we like... [47:33] The process so far, just for some context, has been Dina and I talking to people, talking [47:38] Fucking around in a spreadsheet, talking to more people, going back to that spreadsheet. It's been very difficult. It's like a lot of math. It's a lot of feelings. It's a lot of like... [47:48] designing for something that literally does not have a playbook. And the only people who have any insight into how we should do it have done it like three months prior. So like, it's very, very new. [48:00] design space for how you distribute and think. And also a lot of legal ambiguity.

[48:06] so much so that I would like you to... [48:11] Perceive a caution, Natasha. [48:13] So much so that we have already recorded this and have had to re-record it. So that's how much legal ambiguity there is. So anyway, that being said, one of the things that was really helpful was... [48:25] For me, and if there is anybody listening who has pushback on this thinking, please slide into the DMs. But... [48:33] The Treasury... [48:35] was... [48:36] communicated to me as you can think about it as your runway almost like how much is in there and how much do you want to allocate towards, um, [48:47] ongoing [48:49] contribution to your community that is unaccounted for so far and gives you enough space and time to get to somewhere else. [48:59] interesting okay let's just be crystal clear we're talking about governance tokens these tokens [49:03] Our governance. Yes. So they give you the, the person who has them, um, [49:12] Yeah, say in how boys club, in what shape boys club takes. [49:19] So that's why it's really important to get right. [49:22] And we are a contribution-gated DAO. [49:26] So the only access to governance tokens is through contribution. So like those are sort of the layers that we're working in. So sorry, back to the split, but I just wanted to give some context for the approach and like some things that have been helpful for me as I've been sort of learning about how this all works. So then, okay, so you have your sort of community treasury, which we'll sit there. And there's sort of a different conversation about what we do with that. And it's a conversation that's largely governed by the folks who have governance tokens.

[49:56] but then there's the... [50:00] Yeah, the sort of rest of the token allocation, the team token allocation. And basically that gets divvied up between... [50:08] founders, founding team, early contributors, and advisors. [50:12] I think actually ENS had a really good... [50:17] Um, [50:18] distribution map maybe we can link to in the show notes. [50:22] So you can see sort of how that looks typically. But yeah, and so – [50:28] the conversation that we've been having, like for example, with Jess from C club, shout out to C club. Um, [50:33] is... [50:35] There's just like an art in that distribution. Like there is with early stage startups where you want to, there's a balance between the [50:43] Um, [50:45] incentivizing [50:47] people to do work and ensuring that, [50:51] You're not over allocating money. [50:52] um, [50:55] Tokens to someone who... [50:57] And making sure matching it as much as you can to ongoing contribution was really his recommendation because he was like, you could end up in a situation where – [51:06] you over allocate to someone who then is no longer on the team. Um, [51:11] And then there's, like, weird stuff that happens with, like, weighted voting and stuff where if someone's not, like, in the game with you, it can lead to odd outcomes. So that was basically his recommendation, and that's sort of what we're wading through right now. So I think that the whole –

[51:27] of what this is, is like, how are you designing for something that is deeply incentivizing people who are working really hard? [51:35] especially when we know that there's so much more to be built and for it to be the business that we want, there's a lot ahead of us. And so, um, [51:44] It's how do you do right by the people who were there early? [51:48] but also incentivized for... [51:51] the long term. [51:53] And for building something that's really big. And like, that's really difficult to do when there is no roadmap. There's no one really who's done it. [52:04] with like the longevity that you can point to and say, okay, there's a successful model. There's a lot of very smart people thinking about this. [52:12] But every case is so distinct and so different. And ours is not – we can't look at a software protocol DAO and say, okay, great, let's do that. We can't look at a media company and map that on. We can't look at early-stage startups and map it on. So for us, it's completely – [52:31] It's very creative work, but the creativity is also falling into these buckets that are really constrained by legal ambiguity, by the way that you can talk about it, by everybody's feelings, like the team's feelings and how much they are a part of it. Yeah. [52:48] It's been really difficult work, and I feel like we're really just starting to dig into it with actual tangible conversations around it and less theoretical conversations around it. And –

[52:59] The other thing is that like, we, it's, it's guaranteed that we're going to fuck up in some way or another. We're going to fuck up. We're going to fuck up. And it's like. [53:08] Knowing that I am 100% positive of it and it's just going to be a surprise in what shape that fuck up takes. And at some point it will make itself obvious and we'll be like, oh. [53:20] There it is. There it is. [53:22] Where else shall she show up? [53:30] Bye. Hey, Natasha. Yeah, Dina. Who is this podcast sponsored by? This podcast is brought to you by MoonPay. And it's very easy to be sponsored by someone when you legitimately like them and think that their product is really great. So here's the thing. At Boys Club, we are acutely aware of how cumbersome the onboarding of new people into crypto is. [54:00] When you're first exploring crypto, this is basically all you're thinking about. MoonPay changes all of that. It's fast and simple and incredibly user-friendly. They make it so, so easy to jump into Web3. So easy that you can use your credit or debit card to buy and sell crypto and other digital collectibles. For all you crypto native people out there, you know that this is an absolute rarity. It's trusted by millions worldwide and loved by yours truly at Boys Club. Visit MoonPay.com to get started. We love you, MoonPay.

[54:30] Feelings. [54:32] Time for the feelings. It's feelings time. Okay. Feelings check in. [54:36] Do you want to go first? Do you want me to go first? Sure. I mean, I think we have the same feeling, which we have reached the tipping point. [54:45] The cup runneth over. We have taken on too much. Too much. [54:50] Yeah. [54:52] We're in over our heads. [54:55] I feel in over my head. That's the feeling. [54:57] That's a bad feeling. It's a bad feeling. [55:03] Yeah, I mean... [55:05] What's the impact of taking on too much? Let's make it, let's bring it to life for people. [55:10] So we have to, we have to delay a project. We've been, we have to delay a pretty, pretty big project that we're. Yeah. So we've been working on this zine. We've talked about it on this podcast a few times. Um, [55:20] And the plan was to launch it at Basel. Yeah. [55:23] And... [55:25] It's not going to happen. [55:27] It could happen. No, here's the thing. Here's what it is. Yeah, you're right. It could happen. [55:32] If we kill ourselves over the next 10 days. [55:35] And potentially... [55:37] And what? Didn't have jobs. Like didn't have other jobs. Oh, if we didn't have jobs, forget it. [55:41] Forget it. It'd be done. It'd be done in two days. But... [55:46] We and the rest of the team that's working on it all work very demanding full time jobs. Yeah. [55:51] And work really hard on Boys Club. They work really hard at their very demanding, high-profile day jobs, and they work very hard on Boys Club.

[56:05] the, you know, if we didn't have jobs, sure, we could have done it. But I think also, you know, [56:11] we didn't want the work product to suffer. And if we were, and, and I think honestly, the team, um, [56:18] made a really mature, mature decision around it, which was like, it, we could potentially be shipping something that we're not like, really, really, really extremely proud of. And that doesn't feel true to the brand, like delivering with excellence is something that I feel like we want to [56:31] have as a core piece of Boys Club and that was at risk if we pushed it. So... [56:37] Uh, that's yeah. So we've delayed, we've delayed that and it's a product that, [56:46] of... [56:48] Having too much going on. Having too much, yeah. Having too much going on. And I think there's this... [56:56] We had our core team meeting on Tuesday and we were talking about this other thing that we're working on. [57:01] And... [57:03] One of our team members was like, I mean, I just want to call out that you both have [57:08] a lot on your plate. Like, [57:10] I was so defensive when she said that. Oh my god, I couldn't have been more defensive. [57:15] I could not have been more defensive. It was so right. She was 100% accurate. She was just like, and do we really need to be taking something else? Do you guys? [57:23] really need to be taking something else on. [57:26] And... [57:28] So, [57:30] It was so hard for me to hear. It couldn't have been harder for me to hear. It was impossible for me to hear, too. And I literally was like, la, la, la, la, la, la.

[57:39] I just... Um... [57:43] And... [57:44] I am of two minds about it. On one hand... [57:47] She's absolutely right. [57:48] Could not be more right. Could not be more right. There's no, we have no time. [57:52] No time, no margin. [57:55] No good. [57:57] That's one hand. On the other hand... [58:02] I think that my perspective of a startup... [58:06] And I don't want to be like toxic hustle culture, whatever. I don't want to like have that in the world. [58:13] But like... [58:14] You don't become... [58:18] A mogul. [58:19] By just like loosely seeing what comes up. [58:23] Like, you work really, really, really hard. And you... [58:27] Look for opportunity when an opportunity presents itself. You take it. And like, I feel like you and I, our job at boys club, when I look at the list of guilds and people's responsibilities and like what they're working on, [58:38] are... [58:39] We have like legal and admin and whatever, but our job is to source and execute on opportunities. That's our job at Boys Club. And like- [58:48] I think there is... [58:51] That's really, really hard. It's really, really hard to actually find... [58:56] opportunity that we feel like will drive value. And it's really hard to execute on that. And... [59:01] So when something comes up, [59:04] To say no is like, oh, like I can't bring myself to do it. And I'd rather kill myself trying to do it than to say no.

[59:13] No to something. Mm-hmm. [59:15] And like, that's a toxic trait. I know that's toxic. And I don't want to like perpetuate toxic energy. And we weren't asking anybody on that call to do additional work. We were saying this is, you literally said on that call, [59:25] There's this opportunity. It's an investment of Natasha and my time. [59:30] And we are going to pursue it. [59:33] And like, yeah, yeah. [59:35] We weren't saying, here's the work for everybody else. I wasn't saying, no, go do a bunch of work. I think, yeah, I think, I mean – [59:42] But then our cup runneth over. Our cup has runneth over. I mean, in biblical terms, that's actually a good thing. [59:48] Oh, is it? Yeah. Okay, great. It means like you're like, there's so much there's abundance. [59:53] There is an abundance of work that we've committed to. [59:59] And yeah, I mean, I think it's – [1:00:03] The balance with the day job is... [1:00:07] hard. [1:00:09] That's the hard part. If it wasn't for that... [1:00:12] I think it would feel a lot different. Yeah. I mean. Here, that's the bed that we've made. The bed that we've made. And we're. [1:00:20] Yeah, we're lying in it. Oh, I would love to be lying in bed. I'd love to be lying in bed. Yeah, I think that also in my day job right now, [1:00:30] I [1:00:31] Basically how my life works right now is everything must run exactly as it's planned to run. [1:00:37] It must. Because if one thing goes off, if one thing's a little late, if something da-da-da, everything starts to like the whole...

[1:00:46] architecture of it collapses. And I have some stuff going on in my day job that made the whole architecture... [1:00:56] just crumble. And... [1:00:59] I'm like, oh, no, what is the plan? And so that's the feeling. [1:01:08] The feeling is being in over my head. Yeah. [1:01:11] So I'm, I've been talking a lot. You've, you've, Oh no, I, I feel exactly the same way. I mean, [1:01:17] I... [1:01:18] it's absurd. [1:01:21] The amount that I've taken on. Yeah. And you have two children. I truly don't know how you do it. [1:01:28] Two children. [1:01:29] Thank you. [1:01:29] You wake up at five. [1:01:31] I wake up really early. Yeah. I wake up really, really early. And, uh, [1:01:36] My husband's an amazing co-parent. He is a really amazing co-parent. You guys win... [1:01:41] a gold star for... [1:01:43] One of the truest co-parenting I've ever seen. [1:01:47] Really? I mean it. He's really solid. And one would need that in order to do the work I'm doing. Anyway, that's – yeah. So I don't know. I don't have anything to add except for I co-sign and agree. And they have no solutions and it will not get any better until we decide to make some sort of meaningful change. And that's not happening anytime soon.

[1:02:18] Draft tweets. I have a draft tweet. [1:02:21] Let's hear it. [1:02:22] Do you have any draft tweets? I can't remember. Mine sounds saucier than it is. [1:02:27] But maybe, actually, maybe it doesn't sound saucy, but... [1:02:29] I want you to know it's a joke. [1:02:32] Okay. [1:02:34] *sigh* [1:02:35] I love it when you watch my looms. [1:02:38] Thank you. [1:02:42] Yeah. [1:02:44] Mm-hmm. [1:02:45] it's so dumb it's so dumb but it's so dumb but you want to know why it like it is do you use them [1:02:52] Yeah, I do. I do. [1:02:54] Isn't it nice when you know that someone's actually done the work to watch it? It is. It's actually, you're right. It is. It's really loving. It's like a really loving thing to do. Yeah. And like, then you actually know that they're up to speed with whatever you're trying to like convey to them. Yeah. You are... [1:03:10] You're a fully remote team. So Looms are a huge tool for distributing information. No one else uses Loom except for me. [1:03:19] In your team? Yeah. Oh, that sucks. Yeah. That sucks. Yeah. I'm trying to instill a loom culture. [1:03:25] So this is my first step. That's really funny. Great. Great. I don't really have any good ones because, honestly, I thought I had such a fire one. The one we talked about last week with the Cadre sisters. And then [1:03:39] zero engagement like two people liked it and i'm just like fuck this app it doesn't get me these people don't get me like and i was just like this is not for me

[1:03:49] I think there is a lack of context around the cadre twins. Yeah, that's the problem. If I posted that on Instagram, people would be like, it's the audience. My audience on Twitter is like, why are you not talking about Dao's? And I'm like, my interests are expensive, okay? [1:04:04] I do have one from France that was like, Marlboro by night, Crest White Strips by day. I'm French now. Oh. [1:04:13] I was hitting that. I was hitting that pretty consistently. I was like, I gotta balance this out. Gotta balance this out. [1:04:19] nice okay okay see ya